How was your Superbowl DVR experience?

@jrcorwin said:

@cayars said:
@tachtevrenidis did you happen to get logs from you ShieldTV or the zip file from the server?

I would love to take a look at them.

After all was said and done, did you get a successful DVR recording added to your library? If so:
when you play it back now does it appear to start some 300 minutes early or does it start right around 3 pm as it should?

How about asking an actual dev to chime in? I appreciate what the ninjas do, but the purpose of the Plex Pass community is heavily diluted if the actual Plex staff and devs cannot be bothered to engage and interact with it.

What say you, @elan?

Why? Do you think they have some magic and will ask different questions, or it will help get fixd quicker this way? The Ninja’s are on top of the issues in DVR/Live TV and are working extremely close with the Devs on this. We figure out how to reproduce, to get logs etc that help the devs figure out where the problem lays so they can diagnose and fix it. We are in constant chat with them as well as the issue tracker. Sometimes of course some threads may need direct input from the devs.

Wouldn’t you rather have the devs doing development then spending unneeded time in the forums doing the job someone could be doing for them to save them the time so they can work on items already identified and in need of a fix?

Plex is much, much more transparent then it used to be. Just as little as a year or so ago customers would not know anything until something is released. Communication is getting better all the time.

You think developers design the software? It’s far more complex than that. There often times are surveys, user group panels, marketing, UI designers, software designers, ect that heavily factor in often before a dev even knows what’s in the development cycle at most businesses. Often times at companies a developer is given a technical specification and they code to the requirements (like a blueprint). If it were a building these could be the guys doing the framing. You wouldn’t go up to those guys to make suggestions to get changes done as you would need to go talk to the architect.

Unlike what you think, the Ninjas do read the forums and go back to Plex with user request, importance, etc which do get factored in often to designs and ongoing development. Some of the Plex staff itself does this as well.

Well you don’t want to hear the truth since it doesn’t suit you but you need to realize that Live TV on apple was just recently released for you to help test and give feedback correct? Would you prefer Plex just withheld these types of early test releases so you don’t see ongoing bugs while these parts of the system are in heavy development? Do you think Plex thinks these are perfect already or similar? They are early releases. As stated Plex could just withhold these types of releases and wait 6 months or so only doing internal testing. In any event that’s not going to get you a delivery any earlier, nor would it allow you to get any feedback in the product while it’s still being worked on.

The simple thing for you would be to just not use the features in beta and wait. You won’t get upset that way. DVR/Live TV in Plex is a very big endeavor. There is nothing out there that will be able to compare to what it will be when finished.

Dude these are NOT EXCUSES. This is just the way it is. If you want to run early release beta code and help test and give feedback that is your option to do with PlexPass.

If you don’t want to test/use beta code and help then STOP DOING IT. Don’t run new features that are in testing and expect them to work like production code.

Helping to test features and new devices aren’t for everyone and maybe you should just wait or use a different product.

Things like manual recording, grid EPG, better device support, better conflict resolution, etc will come. First thing is to make sure you get solid recordings world wide. There is quite a lot of difference in the way some countries broadcast, how CC/subtitles/teletext works and this is still being diagnosed and being worked on. Same with Live TV. There are issues to be worked out yet. Some regions are even using H.265 to broadcast which adds yet other obstacles. Plex is getting very close on these core items but there are still a couple of things to fix.

There is no point worrying about a ton of additional features until you get the core solid which is the point of these releases. Once the core is where it needs to be then development will move on to these features we all want and need for daily operation.

Also DVR is a perfect texbook example of how NOT to do it!

What’s the point of releasing early if your customers are complaining about bugs???

Effectively DVR will take at least 1 year longer to be stable and usable than the original release was. In the meanwile Plex lost a lot of goodwill and - even worse - pi**ed off many potential clients that bought a Plex Pass just for that feature.

Guys I do understand what you are saying about some lack of features. I don’t disagree with you on that. I too think it needs to have manual recording, needs to have a grid EPG, needs to be able to channel up or channel down in live TV without a grid or anything just using an up or down for channel surfing. It needs to allow audio selection so you can choose which broadcast language is used and it needs to support Closed Captioning in all clients. It needs to support different hardware on the same server with different EPGs (think cable plus OTA). I personally want it to have all these features plus a lot more then just the standard DVR/PVR features.

We do not disagree on these things. We disagree on the timeline of delivery of them. All I’m saying is that it’s far better to fix the core (heart and soul) of the DVR/Live TV fix before adding on all the bells and whistles we all want.

Putting the marketing aside. Had this been released as a “CORE FEATURE BETA” test where only the core features are being tested before further build out would that have made you more happy? We would not being going back and forth if it was released this way? Maybe that is the fundamental issue in the way it’s been released!?!?

Obviously you did get more then just the core but the focus has been on getting the kinks out of the core so what’s saved is perfect and what is streamed is perfect. It’s very, very close right now with only a fringe thing or two left to knock out such as teletext in parts of Europe.

That’s probably about as clear as I can make the case. You can like it or not like it but it is what it is. I have zero control over this other than to try and share the approach with you guys.

Actually I believe most of you guys can see that Plex has been working on the core and fixing the issues being expressed in the forums. Nearly all the bugs are now gone in the core and the basic feature set needed by the different clients has been rolled out to additional clients (PMP and XBox) just a couple of days ago. Plex is building this out in a way that now makes sense.

@jrcorwin said:
Manual recordings? That is a basic CORE feature. Allowing for automatic recordings based on EPG data?! THAT is a bolt on, additional feature. Basic common sense tells you that one should precede the other.
Not to quibble but a manual recording is not a core feature in the way I just expressed testing. It doesn’t matter how you created the recording. Is the recording manual or setup in a schedule. The “core” is that the recording is correct or the live stream is correct. If there are issues in the actual recording (like there was) does it really matter how you set it up to record? If you get full page Teletext over your live stream does it really matter how you started the live stream (from grid or show or other EPG source)?

This is what I meant as the core.

“Manual Recording” would be more of a Requirement Feature then a core feature in that context. Can you get by without it? If yes then it’s not a core feature. Obviously many people get by without manual recording abilities because not all DVRs support this. Many STB don’t allow this.

A grid based guide? Never mind the potential for its use for DVR control…just Live TV. Yet another incredibly basic and simple feature that should have been there from day 1 with Live TV. Excuse after excuse and here we are waiting for it by the end of Q1…

Again, this isn’t a core feature. You can test and use the present product to help get the bugs out without it. You can label it a “Requirement Feature” for better use and no one will argue with you. You would have agreement. But again if the core doesn’t have all the recording bugs worked out how important is a grid?

Once again…and I sincerely hope this is clear to you this time…I am very familiar with beta testing. I do NOT expect release candidate performance from beta builds. I am well aware that bugs and missing features are to be expected. However that does not excuse the two issues I already mentioned in this post. Those are two issues that should not exist, but I fully expect will be rectified eventually.

If you understand beta testing then you know you can get a work in progress build that is there for you to pound on to find issues and report them so they can get fixed for the final product or the next builds. Some companies use betas more like release candidates and some companies release things just for testing that will become a new program or part of a bigger service. There is no right or wrong way. It depends on the needs of the company.

Some of the issues I mentioned in an earlier post, I am less optimistic about. The issue with 1-film collections is so maddening because it was so obvious that it was going to be a problem. It’s an issue that has long gone unresolved. That it was left without having been fixed and allowed to impact the collections feature is nothing but incompetence. Unnecessary transcoding with tvOS? That will likely never be fixed. Plex has shown itself to be far too lazy in that regard. Their reliance on the native video player proves that much.

This is not about DVR/Live TV but I’ll comment. I agree with you on the 1 item collection. I have suggested to Plex they add a setting that allows the user to select the minimum tags to be considered a collection. Set it to 2 o 3 and the problem is fixed. :slight_smile:

I myself turned off the AUTO collection pulling in the meta agents then highlighted about 500 movies at a time and bulk edited the collection tag and removed them all from my library. I then created my own tags. The initial process did kind of suck. It took me about 5 or 6 hours to do 10K movies but I’m glad I did it this way. Now I no longer worry about these coming back and I fully control what I consider a collection.

So while the initial setup of using collections can suck to get it right it does work great once you get past that point.

@cayars said:
Dude these are NOT EXCUSES. This is just the way it is. If you want to run early release beta code and help test and give feedback that is your option to do with PlexPass.

If you don’t want to test/use beta code and help then STOP DOING IT. Don’t run new features that are in testing and expect them to work like production code.

Cayars, maybe it would help if you and Plex wouldn’t see the Plex Pass users as their beta testers. We are you clients who pay money to get features before they are released to the general public. We expect those features to be beta-tested by the Plex team before they are rolled out to us.

As with DVR: as long as DVR was part of the special beta-release nobody complained. Pleople installed it and gave feedback. But now it’s part of the normal release … and once again we see that Plex didn’t properly think through and test their stuff. This is the main problem: the sloppiness and laziness of the devs towards their customers!

As of today:

  • Direct play isn’t available in all possible cases
  • DVR has problems
  • Photo has problems
  • Sync has problems
  • Plex Cloud has problems
  • The UI/UX has problems
  • A bunch of specific clients have problems (XBox, Samsung, …)

The list get’s longer with every release. But hey, we have VR and PlexAmp and a new Privacy Policy. All good, all good …

@marcelhehle said:

@cayars said:
Dude these are NOT EXCUSES. This is just the way it is. If you want to run early release beta code and help test and give feedback that is your option to do with PlexPass.

If you don’t want to test/use beta code and help then STOP DOING IT. Don’t run new features that are in testing and expect them to work like production code.

Cayars, maybe it would help if you and Plex wouldn’t see the Plex Pass users as their beta testers. We are you clients who pay money to get features before they are released to the general public. We expect those features to be beta-tested by the Plex team before they are rolled out to us.

As with DVR: as long as DVR was part of the special beta-release nobody complained. Pleople installed it and gave feedback. But now it’s part of the normal release … and once again we see that Plex didn’t properly think through and test their stuff. This is the main problem: the sloppiness and laziness of the devs towards their customers!

As of today:

  • Direct play isn’t available in all possible cases
  • DVR has problems
  • Photo has problems
  • Sync has problems
  • Plex Cloud has problems
  • The UI/UX has problems
  • A bunch of specific clients have problems (XBox, Samsung, …)

The list get’s longer with every release. But hey, we have VR and PlexAmp and a new Privacy Policy. All good, all good …

But Plex Pass access to early features is just that BETA. You should expect the problems if you use the beta releases. Maybe Plex needs a long Non Beta but plexpass only time for features (RC stage maybe). The issue I have with Plex, is that users will report issues during the BETA and some of them are not fixed and then the version is released as Production. That is just wrong no matter how you look at it. I understand if a new bug that noone found during beta makes it to production but not known issues especially if they cause playback issues. The entire streaming experience is ruined if you are watching a movie and it buffers or stops because of a known bug on a production system.

Your Plex Pass subscription gives you exclusive premium features and early access to new ones.
https://www.plex.tv/features/plex-pass/#

Plex DVR is listed as a premium feature, not as a beta! Plex advertises and sells DVR in the meanwhile as a working feature! The word “Beta” doesn’t show a at all on the Plex webpage.

@marcelhehle said:
Your Plex Pass subscription gives you exclusive premium features and early access to new ones.
https://www.plex.tv/features/plex-pass/#

Plex DVR is listed as a premium feature, not as a beta! Plex advertises and sells DVR in the meanwhile as a working feature! The word “Beta” doesn’t show a at all on the Plex webpage.

Drill down on it at that page: https://www.plex.tv/features/live-tv-dvr/ and after reading all the cool features you see it says
"Get Plex Live TV and DVR
Plex DVR is currently in Plex Pass preview. "

It’s not as clear as it should be IMHO.
BTW, make sure to post issues in the proper forums. I’m only interested in the DVR/Live TV features since that’s what this section we are in.

There are two distinct parts which are DVR and Live TV. The core parts of DVR is pretty good and the next release is even better.

Live TV (newest part) still has some issue and Plex is working through them. It’s still being rolled out (2 new clients this week) to clients so of course there will probably be some issues with this new beta code.

Several employees and numerous Ninja’s including myself are watching the forums carefully for issues. Duplicating them and creating logs for the devs to fix. All the issues are trying to be taken care of.

@cayars said:
It’s not as clear as it should be IMHO.
Couldn’t agree more!

@cayars said:
Several employees and numerous Ninja’s including myself are watching the forums carefully for issues. Duplicating them and creating logs for the devs to fix. All the issues are trying to be taken care of.

What about opening a bug-tracking system!!! I know that you guys are putting a lot of effort into it, but it is a bit of student’s project approach after all …

@cayars thanks for engaging us although it is not always pleasant! In other posts, I have talked about Plex focusing on one thing and doing it well before it tries to expand its core capabilities. It seems to me that if there was one permutation of hardware/software that would get people a stable/robust Plex experience, folks would not mind investing in that hardware. See Plex is trying to be everywhere (Roku, SmartTVs, Android TV, Apple TV etc) and IMO it does not do it well enough anywhere. When you spread engineering so wide 1) features come out slow 2) they don’t work right etc. Since last year, I have seen photo tagging, alexa, news, VR, and now the rumored podcast support. Plex engineering is spread too thin!

@marcelhehle said:
What about opening a bug-tracking system!!! I know that you guys are putting a lot of effort into it, but it is a bit of student’s project approach after all …

I too would love to see this. Before I was a Ninja I highly advocated this as well. As a Ninja I still advocate for this. Unfortunately I don’t get to make the decisions. :slight_smile:

Plex recently (few months ago) created a Ninja only ticket system that is working out nice for us Ninja’s. We don’t need to see all the nitty-gritty stuff the employees might need but it allows us to track bugs and users issues. Maybe down the road Plex will extend this to users as read only so you guys can see what’s been filed but keep write access for Ninja’s to make sure everything is filed correctly and of course keep out the numerous dupes that would happen. That could perhaps be a way to go in the future.

@tachtevrenidis said:
@cayars thanks for engaging us although it is not always pleasant! In other posts, I have talked about Plex focusing on one thing and doing it well before it tries to expand its core capabilities. It seems to me that if there was one permutation of hardware/software that would get people a stable/robust Plex experience, folks would not mind investing in that hardware. See Plex is trying to be everywhere (Roku, SmartTVs, Android TV, Apple TV etc) and IMO it does not do it well enough anywhere. When you spread engineering so wide 1) features come out slow 2) they don’t work right etc. Since last year, I have seen photo tagging, alexa, news, VR, and now the rumored podcast support. Plex engineering is spread too thin!

If everyone was using a device such as the ShieldTV which can direct play mpeg2 video and do it’s own de-interlacing (and quite well) it would make this a much simpler endeavor for sure. But if your neighbor had the ShieldTV and you didn’t have the upload bandwidth it really wouldn’t matter if they were using a Roku as the stream would need to get transcoded anyway.

Plex essentially had to find the ideal way to record while being able to funnel the live-tv streams through the transcoder to allow for this for type of thing to support the different clients and bandwidth restrictions that could be in the way. To be able to make use of the auto bitrate adjustments already present in the mobile apps, etc. I believe this was the post 1.6 version changes.

Plex has been very “die-hard” working to identify and fix these issues in the “core” of DVR/Live TV since it’s fundamental to the product working correctly long run. The “technology” will also be of use for other things possibly like streaming from additional services. It’s a far different animal to stream a local file that you can know the bitrates of to something coming in live (from the internet or from a tuner). Identifying the streams in real-time as you can imagine is much harder then looking up what has already been discovered through a deep analysis of the files. It also poses new challenges that need to get discovered and fixed. As an example something simple like the US Fox Channel can broadcast Spanish as the first track and English as the second and not identify the streams correctly. To make matters worse even though the first channel is Spanish the advertisements might still be in English. So depending on when you tune into the channel you might get English or Spanish on that channel. You of course can record all streams but for LiveTV you only want to send the correct language channel to save on bandwidth (in many situations). Not to mention the pre-padding might have a show using stereo while the new show is 5.1 with advertisements being something different with each new commercial. Sounds simple until you have to program for it. :slight_smile:

Another simple example of “new” issues for Live-TV is CC or Closed Captions in North America. Unlike files ripped from disc you don’t have separate streams in the file for the “subtitles”. Instead in NA this CC data is embedded in the even line 21 field. Obviously not all the default players used in the apps know how to use this data since some of them can’t decode mpeg2. Plex needs to handle this on the server side at times so the client will be able to display the CC data.

There are lots of little gotchas like these that no one would think about and the only way to find this stuff out is to get your software out in the wild being tested world-wide. It’s obviously best to do this during the preview period so these issues can be identified and a remedy is found before piling on more and more features making the fixes that much harder down the road.

So from that standpoint Plex is working quite hard on fixing any and all “core” features before adding on a lot of bells and whistles we all want to have.

Carlo

That’s certainly one way to look at it. Another way is to say that instead of putting a whole development team on one device you can create apps on many additional devices and support a whole lot of other people.

Of course if you happen to be a user of a specific device then you would prefer the specific device code. :slight_smile: However, think about this. If Plex was to create specific code for each device we might have Android, XBox and Roku with everything else in the pipeline schedule for a later date.

If you can use the system default player then any changes/fixes made to it are much easier to incorporate into your own product and you get them as a “bonus” without having to spend the dev resources on them (except the integration).

So yep there are pros and cons of both approaches.

@cayars said:

@tachtevrenidis said:
@cayars , the recording seems perfect start to finish.

I did not get the logs, is it too late?

Sorry thought I answered this but I guess it didn’t. Know way to now but probably to late. Make sure you have DEBUG turned on but VERBOSE off.
https://support.plex.tv/articles/201643703-reporting-issues-with-plex-media-server/

You can increase the number of log files to a bigger number if you like. By default the server keeps 5 but it’s quite easy to bump this number up to 10, 15 or 25 so that you can keep a few days worth of logs available which can be quite helpful with DVR issues.
Look for the setting LogNumFiles in here: https://support.plex.tv/articles/201105343-advanced-hidden-server-settings/

Carlo

@cayars it happened again and this time, I figured it out. I don’t think logs are needed. Check this out. So my wife starts to watch this movie that is currently recording (Pretty Woman). It is maybe 10 minutes after the start of the recording. She selects it and BOOM, the Plex client says “Watch from the beginning (189 minutes ago)”, hell the whole movie is not 189 minutes long! She selects that anyway and the movie starts half way through another movie. Weird right? Well the movie that started was the movie we recorded right before this one ON THE SAME CHANNEL! If you add the length of that recording plus the length of the current recording (so far) you get 189. And since there is a Plex max of how far back you can go on a live stream (at least this is always the case for me), it started half way through (give or take). Bottom line, there is something that keeps the buffered live stream alive from a previous recording when you have back to back recordings on the same channel.

See screenshots!


attachments fixed!

@tachtevrenidis said:
@cayars it happened again and this time, I figured it out. I don’t think logs are needed. Check this out. So my wife starts to watch this movie that is currently recording (Pretty Woman). It is maybe 10 minutes after the start of the recording. She selects it and BOOM, the Plex client says “Watch from the beginning (189 minutes ago)”, hell the whole movie is not 189 minutes long! She selects that anyway and the movie starts half way through another movie. Weird right? Well the movie that started was the movie we recorded right before this one ON THE SAME CHANNEL! If you add the length of that recording plus the length of the current recording (so far) you get 189. And since there is a Plex max of how far back you can go on a live stream (at least this is always the case for me), it started half way through (give or take). Bottom line, there is something that keeps the buffered live stream alive from a previous recording when you have back to back recordings on the same channel.

Please, please, please upload your Server ZIP file. I’ve been on the hunt to try and recreate this (unsuccessfully) to get log files for this. If it’s not still in your log files can you make sure you have DEBUG logging turn on, VERBOSE turned off. Then next time you see this immediately upload or PM your logs?

I would appreciate that so much!

Carlo

PS yes your explanation is spot on!
BTW after it was done recording is Pretty Women correct? It starts when it should have and ended when it should have? Just mixed up while trying to watch during Live TV?

@cayars it is easily reproducible now. I will repro and send you logs.

@cayars oh and both recordings are correct (the second caught 2-3 mins of the previous movie’s ending but that is common as movies runs over often etc

@cayars here you go (from last night)

@tachtevrenidis said:
@cayars here you go (from last night)

You are only seeing this on Android correct? If so this is a known issue in the pipeline to get fixed. Android handles the buffer a bit differently then other clients and this is being changed to work like the others (what we want to happen).