Starting to understand the Team's priorities

@elan said:

@dragonmel said:
When this project started way back when… it was open and good people worked on it… it was driven by what movie watchers on big screens wanted and they had PCs to run it…

Today the project is corporate, closed and run by greed

I find your statement deplorable, not least because ALL THE SAME GOOD PEOPLE still work here. We all still use Plex and we’re all still passionate about making it awesome. Just because our priorities don’t always match up with yours doesn’t make us bad people. Or closed. Or greedy.

I’ll give you all of it except closed. Taking PHT off the Kodi code and putting it on something that is home brewed (with more bugs and less features, which I guess is to be expected with new code verses a huge code-base with years of code and an army of developers to fall back on, but rubs folks the wrong way regardless) is the very definition of becoming more closed.

@dragonmel said:
When this project started way back when… it was open and good people worked on it… it was driven by what movie watchers on big screens wanted and they had PCs to run it…
You are re-writing history. Originally Plex ran on Macs not PCs. When Plex stopped being just the OS X port of Xbox Media Centre it stopped being Open Source & has been all the better for it.

@nigelpb I am not in marketing… to me a mac is still a personal computer … and I was using plex before it was called plex and when it was plex media center and didnt have a backend… but thanks for the history lesson…

Originally elan joined with the xbmc guys when he started the c++ recompile on osx… but then split off from them…

And I agree… plex made great strides after some initial teething pain… again… I have been involved since the beginning… and until recently… my last post was 2011… things mostly worked fine… an occasional bump… but the last 2 months have been insufferable … each realease worse than the last and coming up on 2 years since they stopped updating PHT and PMP is still a disaster and in some cases going backward… still having to use 3rd party openpht to have a decent viewing experaince… that is when plex isn’t breaking control completely… since i have no keyboard or mouse hooked up to my big screen… I rely on using the ios app to run it…

@jkalland said:
I’ll give you all of it except closed. Taking PHT off the Kodi code and putting it on something that is home brewed (with more bugs and less features, which I guess is to be expected with new code verses a huge code-base with years of code and an army of developers to fall back on, but rubs folks the wrong way regardless) is the very definition of becoming more closed.

I think your definition of closed may vary from mine, sir.

Plex Media Player is open source. It’s built upon other open source projects (ffmpeg, mpv (which built off mplayer), and many others).

A “huge code-base” also has disadvantages. It had become a giant Swiss army knife over the many years, and it was hugely difficult to keep our changes in sync with the upstream code. Plex Media Player has a lightweight, powerful core which will serve us well in the years to come.

@elan thanks for chiming in on the thread, I have to admit it reminded me of Tomi Lahren coming on “The Daily Show” last week with you coming into the Lion’s Den.

As far as some of your retorts to the concerns raised by folks over the many pages this thread has taken, I’m a little concerned about the dismissal of features that you yourself have even called “basic features” for a media suite. Collections, specifically. Almost all the media suites have it. I’m probably not a power user by this forum’s definition (just because someone posts 500+ comments on a forum doesn’t make them any more powerful than a quieter Plex user)… but XBMC has it, Emby has it, WMC has it, where if I want to collapse all my James Bond movies into one icon, instead of listing all 20+ James Bond movies. If I want to watch the first Rambo movie, I might not think about “First Blood”.

Collections on Plex is horrible because it’s set up more like a view filter. But what about having collections co-exist with the main list of movies? Right now on Plex, it just isn’t possible. And a feature like that is surely a feature that would please 80% of the userbase. Because if it doesn’t, why do so many other media suites include it?

I too long for proper Collection management (similar to Emby) in Plex. To me this isn’t a power user feature at all but a long overdue missing basic feature. There are lots of things like this missing that aren’t “power features”.

Some set of movies like “Back to the Future” are easy to find and view because they will group together nicely in one’s library but many other sets of movies won’t group nicely together sorted by name. It’s frustrating trying to find them. Take for example my collection of James Bond movies with I think 24 movies in it. Besides the fact of sorting or easing the finding of them I could save 23 icons with a proper collection.

At present you either need to go edit the meta data and do something like add “James Bond” to the beginning of every movie and lock the meta data (not cool because someone has to know NOT to look under “S” but instead under “J” to find “Spectre”), create specific libraries for them (I’d have far to many libs) or manually create Playlists for them (OK Solution but not easily shareable so kind of useless).

This is a needed feature that should work the same as in other media suites without goofy constraints or oddball ways of having to use/create them.

@jkalland @elan

Perhaps Elan should read what his own devs write… Plex media player has 2 parts… and only one part is open… the other is closed source and not available as code or repo or open for inclusion or edit by 3rd party…

That is anyone’s definition of closed development other than you Elan

Quote from the first post of the PMP thread

About Open Source

What parts of PMP are Open?
Plex Media Player is really two different layers. The Host layer is the layer that interacts with your OS, plays video and music and also loads the interface via a Chromium process. The client part is our HTML5 web-client that is responsible for communication with Plex.tv, your media server and renders the UI you see on screen.
We are making the Host part of this application open source. The web-client will be downloaded from our servers during the build phase as a binary.
What parts can I contribute to?
With the host being open you can help with the following areas:
Compile/port the application to new platforms that we don’t officially support
Improve and fix bugs in the video/audio playing layer (mpv)
Add new input methods that require access to the OS / hardware
Improve key mapping and other OS integration features
What parts can’t I contribute to?
Anything done in the web-client. This includes:
Changing / adding to the UI. Note that we are investigating theme/skin support.
Fixing bugs or improving the communication with Plex servers and cloud
Well that sucks.

And here are your own comments on closed source portions of the server

elan CTO and Co-founder MauiPosts: 9,214Members, Plex Employee, Plex Pass, Plex NinjaPlex Employee March 2010
analogue wrote on 25 March 2010 - 12:00 PM:

Is the availability of the source code for Plex Media Server to the public a matter of time or is it your intention to keep it closed source?

For now it will be closed source. I don’t know if this will change in the future.

analogue wrote on 25 March 2010 - 12:00 PM:

It is an “interesting” choice since Plex is based on a number of open source components

I don’t see how that’s relavent. We toiled away writing the source code for the Media Server, so it’s our right to choose what to do with it. We’re fully complying with the licenses for any 3rd party source that is used in the Media Server, so I really don’t see your point.

analogue wrote on 25 March 2010 - 12:00 PM:

even in your latest blog posting (http://elan.plexapp.com/2010/03/24/the-road-to-alexandria-part-1-introduction/), the term “Open” is bandied about.

Open doesn’t imply open source. Open implies that the data is stored and retrievable using open and free formats, and there are lots of “plug-in” points where people can add value and customize.

@dragonmel said:
All the dumbing down and homogenizing the clients into useless crap is so that they can run on even the weekest ‘smart’ tv’s and other consumer level crap that this project is now funded by and controlled by…

What use to be the king of the big screen movie watching experience is devolving into a useless, overextended, overhyped, ill-supported beta fest of buggy code …

Yeah, then there’s this. When capable PHT got axed and we got the Fischer-Price solution called PMP as a “replacement” I wrote many long posts on the subject, echoed by countless others. Ignored by Plex, of course. I gave up on PMP long ago and from what I’ve read, things haven’t improved. It’s unfortunate and depressing that I have to depend on a third-party player (OpenPHT) in order to get any sort of decent home theater experience interacting with my Plex server. Unfortunately its biggest champion and advocate on here recently passed away.

As a result of having a unified/singular client experience across all clients (likely because they don’t want to have to do so much work actually developing), on top of widening the scope of clients with a widening spectrum of hardware capabilities, results in a lowest-common-denominator product where a powerhouse media player device is handicapped due to the hardware in someone’s “smart” TV which is surpassed by most 2-year-old cell phones. The irony is the TV manufacturer will probably stop supporting client updates on a given TV within 1 year of release, quickly causing the user to be forced to move onto one of the real and more-capable client solutions anyway because they don’t want to have to buy a new TV every year for the sake of an integrated Plex client.

@sremick , that is EXACTLY what I meant when I said I was a fan of universal design language, and terrified of actual universal design. Yes…1000x yes.

@nibble4bits ~ that’s a funny analogy, and I apologize for perhaps being overly dismissive of Collections. One of the interesting (and challenging) things about Plex is that it’s a fractal landscape, in that you can dive down deeply into any particular area and there’s an entire universe of features you could add. And different people zoom into different areas, and claim totally different things are super important (which they are, to those people).

Also, we’re all Plex users here too, every single person in the company uses Plex. And plenty of our employees are “power users” and have large collections of media, and feel strongly about different features.

So in conclusion: yes, a lot of people want Collections. Would I call it one of the top-ten requested features between our customers, employees, and forum users? Probably not. Is it one which is near and dear to my own heart? Yes, actually, as I’ve pointed out before. Is it a pretty hard feature to implement? Yes, actually, and what makes it even harder is that all clients would have to be updated to support it.

So let’s all breathe a collective (pun intended) deep breath here. We’ll never please every single person and add every single feature to our software. If you’re looking for things to rant about Plex missing, let me assure you, there will always be lots! But in the meantime, try to keep an open mind and realize that there are a ton of people who use Plex, who might have different priorities and desires than your own.

@dragonmel ~ I’m honestly too exhausted to keep arguing with you about these things, across a bunch of forum threads.

@elan said:
Would I call it one of the top-ten requested features between our customers, employees, and forum users? Probably not.

How do you know what your customers want? If they aren’t coming here to the forums to request features what avenue are you using to understand what the community really wants? This is what the Feature Requests forums is all about isn’t it? Are you relying on Facebook posts? Reddit comments? Where are the surveys or polls to support these assumptions you have?

If it’s one of the top 10 in the forums, with an assumed 1% of the entire community asking for it, wouldn’t you say that this could be scaled up fairly well to a large majority of the community. That’s how exit polls work… Granted, exit polls are not always accurate, but many times they NAIL it, too…

What use is the Feature Requests forum if it’s not an indicator of the features people want to see? Is it just there for a warm fuzzy for us that come to the forums? If so, that sure explains a lot to many of us here…

If people come to the forums looking for how to do a feature, and then find it’s not available, many of them would naturally go to a Feature Requests forum. (or are directed to them.) They would either make a request there or search for it and support an existing feature request. Some folks don’t even know these forums exist. They go to Facebook or Reddit or any of a slew of other similar types of social media to do their search/request.

You make claims that “we” don’t know what the entire Plex Community wants, but how do you know, if you aren’t asking the entire community for input? Or have you asked this elsewhere, but not of the people on the forums?

I really do think it’s time for a survey emailed out to all of Plex’s users. Leverage the 3rd party survey sites to get something comprehensive that you can ask several (4 or 5, maybe?) different pages worth of potential features, assigning a value of 1-10 for importance to the given user. Do you want ebooks over collections over desktop sync? Make sure each of the potential features has been asked at least 2 or 3 times, but ask them in a different mix of other potential competing features. This is the only way to KNOW what your users really want. Otherwise it’s just a guessing game. (One which many of the people in this thread think you are losing.)

You may very well find that Music Videos are super important to a few, but that a fully functional PMP is a much more important thing to many more people. Or that user groupings is the most desired of all potential features. Or HW acceleration… Or “fixing” things like Blacklists in filters and permissions… And this gives you an idea of where to start allocating development resources and time. It also engages the users in the development cycle. Right now, this is one of the biggest things missing. We have no visibility, and some of us think there’s simply nothing going on other than what the TEAM wants to have happen.

The only way you are ever going to know what features the users want means you are going to have to ask them. If only 10% of the community replies to this survey, well, at least you have an idea of what 10% of the users want to see, which is better than the claimed 1% from the forums.

A survey is only going to work, if you USE the data. It needs to be published, so respondents can see how their “pet” features compete against others, and allocating resources need to reflect the survey. Otherwise you just get more thread like this one in 6 months or a year, and we repeat the whole process.

We’ll see if what the users want is truly important to Plex as a whole, if we see a survey like this come out. With the answers we’ve gotten in this and past threads, I honestly don’t think a survey is likely to happen. Even with 10% responding I’m sure that wouldn’t be enough to justify a swing in the Team’s priorities.

@MikeG6.5 ~ I’m throwing in the towel, because you’re just not listening to what I have to say, and conversations have to be two-way to make sense. I realize you think you speak for all our users (or at least the vast majority of them), and that’s probably where we fundamentally differ.

Yeah, you’re right. It does take two-way communications. Which has been a large part of the problem. Many of us in this thread have been communicating with you and you’re equivocating, or making excuses without backing up your assumptions with hard data.

And honestly, this answer is the one I most expected to see from you. You would rather hide behind invisible data to justify a stance that you’ve had over 2 years than survey the user community and publish those results.

Make the survey I suggested above. If I’m wrong in my stance based on it, I’ll sit on the sidelines.

best tap dancing I have seen since shirly temple…

or to quote another person that fails to see reality …

“Well, I don’t think people want a new direction,” — N. Pelosi.

@MikeG6.5 said:
So, why can’t there be some parallel development on some of the things we’ve asked for, and some of the “exciting” things?

Maybe the’re afraid that they might catch their own tail eventually . . .

@jjrjr1 said:
Really Crazy!!!

Crazy?? Who are you calling crazy :smiley: ?!?!

@jkalland said:
And the ability to call it “collections” instead of 100 disparate explanations about “that thing where the movies get grouped together when they’re in a trilogy”

Maybe “franchises” :wink: ?

I guess everybody calls it Collections because The Movie Database calls it like that. But if it were “franchises”, then you could have, for example, all Marvel Cinematic Universe under one banner (and I’m talking movies, tv series, one-shots).

I think this is how it’s supposed to be.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@elan said:
So in conclusion: yes, a lot of people want Collections. Would I call it one of the top-ten requested features between our customers, employees, and forum users? Probably not.

And Photo tagging was? That’s just ridiculous.

@MikeG6.5 said:
How do you know what your customers want? If they aren’t coming here to the forums to request features what avenue are you using to understand what the community really wants? This is what the Feature Requests forums is all about isn’t it? Are you relying on Facebook posts? Reddit comments? Where are the surveys or polls to support these assumptions you have?

@elan said:
@MikeG6.5 ~ I’m throwing in the towel, because you’re just not listening to what I have to say, and conversations have to be two-way to make sense. I realize you think you speak for all our users (or at least the vast majority of them), and that’s probably where we fundamentally differ.

@elan - Mike asked you a simple question. You should answer it instead of avoiding.
He, and all of us would listen if you’d say something of actual substance. But you’re just trying to weasel yourself out of the problem without admitting something that is fairly obvious - you’re wrong.
Answer the question. And don’t give us that BS about metrics. You can’t draw conclusions from something that isn’t there. You have no way of knowing if users that are not in this forum don’t want those features. That’s just not possible.

PS: I’m going to just say it as it is (and probably get punished): They don’t give a Foxtrot Uniform Charlie Kilo about all this…
If they did, we would’t get constant excuses and “half-truths” and simply blatant lies.
Plex has spread itself very thin. Now they complain that they would have to rewrite sooooo much in order to support community requests. That’s the thing - if you’d actually build a good feature base and than grow on this instead of blindly running to reach every corner of the universe - guess what? - you wouldn’t have that problem!!

Good number of the feature requests are things that should be there from the beginning. They are that obvious!

I wonder - how is it that Plex Inc has “so many good people” working there, yet noone appears to use logic . . .
And don’t even try to deny that - porting Plex Server to a damn router is just one of the recent examples of this.
Soooo many good people - and just to keep quoting movies here:

“Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should.”

It’s simple. You don’t do surveys when you don’t want to hear the answers.

@latweek

Or you pull a NASA global warming study and ‘massage’ the data to your likening

@Monsters_Grin

When you have a media player development let by a photographer that takes WAY too many pictures of his dog… and you have to ask how photo tagging made it to the top of the list… perhaps its a good week to stop drinking… hehe

Jurassic Park… .way to bring the quotes… at least I am not the only one around here with a sense of humor…

As for running plex server on a router… makes me now fully believe these guys are masochists … they think they have a busy forum with complaints now… wait til jil or john assclown… that has no idea what they are getting into or how their media will need to be prepared to have a usable experience running it and they might as well hire 20 more people and open a whole new board for ‘why does my plex always buffer’ complaints…

You would have thought that the issues and complaints from the underpowered NAS crowd was bad enough… but most people that have a NAS are probably a couple steps ahead as far as computing infrastructure to understand what they are getting into…

As for the ‘fringe’ of people that are served by that effort… I can only imagine… but I am guessing that less that .01% of plex users will be running one… and I can good and goddamn bet that the features people are talking about here matter to far more people…

Here is the advertised feature table… from the main website… i wish the formatting had come over in table format… but honestly… in the last 3 months how many people here can say the majority are working as advertised and stable…

Any Format
Support for all file types (well, virtually all), including hi-fi music and video formats.
Available Anywhere
Stream all of your media to all your devices, anytime, anywhere, with the same beautiful experience on all of them. (iOS, Android, and Windows apps require a one-time unlock fee for full playback.)
Library Organization
Organize all of your media–videos, photos, and music–and make it beautiful with artwork and info like plot summaries, bios, and more.
Privacy and Security
Enjoy your media while away from home, knowing your connection is securely encrypted.
Sharing
Effortlessly share libraries among friends to all discover and enjoy even more content together.
Recommendations and Discovery
Enjoy beautifully organized libraries that help you find and re-discover great gems in your collection.
Online Channels
Get online content from various sources, like TED Talks, NPR, Spike, Comedy Central, and Soundcloud, right in Plex.
Remote Control
Use the Plex app on your phone or tablet to control any Plex player.
Flinging
Start content on one device and fling it to another app to continue enjoying it.
Media Optimizer
Create optimized versions of your media for seamless streaming on whichever device you choose.
Watch Later
Save online videos to watch later or recommend videos to a friend.
Plex DVR NEW
Record free broadcast TV channels and watch your favorite HD shows, movies, news, and sports on any device, anywhere in the world. Management of Plex DVR only available on the Plex Web App.
Lyrics
See timed lyrics to your favorite songs when available.
Plex Mix
Kick off playback of similar tracks from your collection at any time — it’s like your own personal radio station.
Premium Music
Enjoy lyrics, automatic Plex Mix and Mood Mix playlists based on mood or similar tracks, and premium metadata matching for high quality art, album reviews, artist bios and more!
Multiple Users
Create customized, managed accounts, and make user switching fast and easy with Plex Home.
Parental Controls
Enable parental controls to keep the kids away from inappropriate content.
Trailers and Extras
Automatically see high quality movie trailers, cast interviews, and other extras for movies in your library.

@dragonmel said:
When you have a media player development let by a photographer that takes WAY too many pictures of his dog… and you have to ask how photo tagging made it to the top of the list… perhaps its a good week to stop drinking… hehe

I couldn’t have put it better myself :smiley: .

@dragonmel said:
Jurassic Park… .way to bring the quotes… at least I am not the only one around here with a sense of humor…

Don’t worry, buddy. I got ya :wink: .

@dragonmel said:
As for running plex server on a router… makes me now fully believe these guys are masochists … they think they have a busy forum with complaints now… wait til jil or john assclown… that has no idea what they are getting into or how their media will need to be prepared to have a usable experience running it and they might as well hire 20 more people and open a whole new board for ‘why does my plex always buffer’ complaints…

You would have thought that the issues and complaints from the underpowered NAS crowd was bad enough… but most people that have a NAS are probably a couple steps ahead as far as computing infrastructure to understand what they are getting into…

I don’t mind running plex on lowpower hardware. I do it myself. But there should be some boundaries. Without them, well soon find out that Plex Inc wants to run Plex on a fridge or washing machine :wink: .
It would be better if they formed more partnerships with NAS manufacturers, like they did with WD, and developed proper support for hadware accelerated transcoding - if they really want to stick with transcoding.
Let’s be honest - even mobile devices have increased their performance dramatically over recent years. I’m pretty sure in most cases there’s no actual reason for transcoding, but Plex is religiously stuck on that anyway.
Up to the point where we can’t even determine why exactly transcoding took place (without deciphering logs), and control it properly (Streaming Brain - b***h please - another example of not thinking about obvious things).

@dragonmel said:
As for the ‘fringe’ of people that are served by that effort… I can only imagine… but I am guessing that less that .01% of plex users will be running one…

Yeah. I’m really curious on the numbers. Would like to see how many actual running installations Plex Inc sees on those routers. I don’t think that was even remotely worth the effort.

If they really want to do something different - they could, together with some major manufacturer, develop a NAS with built-in ASIC dedicated for AVC/HEVC transcoding and that would be more popular than that ridiculous router idea.