The Need to Vent :) - Better Communication Needed

General Discussions
1

Plex has many very cool features but it also has a long list of problems. Some of these problems include Marketing Based Issues, Policy Issues, Architecture Issues, Client Side Issues, Server Side Issue and lack of focus on what present customer need/want.

 

I must say I think I was happier with Plex overall a year ago (+ or -) then I am at present.  Yes we have many new features, but the percentage of things working correct is less than it was a year ago.  At a high level:

 

SYNCING:
We have new SYNC functionality for devices and cloud storage.  This item covers multiple issues. How it works vs how it was ORIGINALLY marketed are two very different things. It is clearly poorly architected and designed.  The "functionality" in the current release version isn't even up to what I would consider "prototype" material from any dev team I would run. It's more of a "proof of concept".

 

At a high level, why would anyone design a system that has to do all transcoding before starting any uploading?  This is bad on so many levels I just can't believe it was done this way.  It doesn't take advantage of your bandwidth as this is probably the biggest limiting factor.  Why would you not want to transcode the first file and get it uploading before moving on to the additional files.  At present if you select 50 files to upload to the cloud you have to transcode all 50 first (and have the needed storage space) then upload all 50.  It should have multiple "queues" where one queue is doing transcoding and another queue is doing the uploads for files ready.  At present if anything goes wrong you must START OVER which is absolutely crazy!

 

Another example of really flawed logic is syncing X number of shows.  So lets assume you want the last 10 shows available for a particular series.  You add a new show.  You would expect it to remove the oldest show and add ONLY the new show.  Nope, it removes all 10 shows and then retrancodes all 10 of the newest shows then uploads them again.  So it completely wastes 90% of the CPU time doing encodes and 90% of the bandwidth doing something that was already there.

 

When you watch something on a device the watch flag is never set on the server to show the user it was watched.  So it never SYNCed back to the server. Hence SYNC doesn't really "sync".

 

The list goes on, but it's just one of those "what were they thinking" when they designed this type things.  Anything to do with syncing needs to go back to the drawing board and get done correctly.  It also needs to be able to support a users full library.  If I want to sync 10K videos then so be it.  If it handles one file at a time and can "skip" problem files and continue then this should be fairly trivial.

 

HOME and FILTERING:
Filtering is "half" done.  Right now it only support positive filtering and no negative filtering.  This is crazy.  As an Example if I want to FILTER OUT 10 movies from my 4K list of movies I CAN NOT just tag the 10 movies and then add this to a negative filter (don't show).  Instead I have to do something to the other 3990+ movies and then INCLUDE that tag.  From a code standpoint this would be VERY EASY to do. Just compile the list of videos matching the positive filter then eliminate those movies matching the negative filter.  Yes it would need 2 or 3 new fields added to the "filter" list but it's well worth it. At the same time the wording should be changed to show "tags allowed" and "tags not allowed". Negative filters ALWAYS "trump" positive filters.

 

Home is great if your setup fits Plex's overall design but a couple of things are goofy.  For example a person can only be a member of ONE home system.  Why?  Many people will/could use the feature of being part of multiple homes.  I have 2 kids, one living at home and one at a University.  I have a Plex system and also have one setup at their mothers house (divorced).  The kids alternate houses.  So both of them have to choose which system to be part of home.  This means they can't sync (when it works), can't easily track what is watched correctly (different if on-lan vs off-lan), etc.  My daughter wants a Plex system at college now so she would want to be part of 3 homes.  This might be "beyond" the goals of Plex but why?  If it was designed correctly this would not be a problem.  Instead of home users being associated with the "master plex" database they should just be normal users.  Then on the server side you tie/tag the normal user to a HOME user.  Done, simple and super scalable. <-- objective of "home" users should just be simple account switching and to get "plex-pass" features.  

 

The login for Home users is not uniform. On every device it should be a main menu option to change users.  Sort of like the Web interface (ie Netflix style), but it doesn't work this way across all clients.  For example on an xBox it's tied to your live account.  I don't want to have to change xBox users for someone in my house to change plex users.  I want my dad or son to be able to switch users inside Plex and never touch the xbox live account.  If they log me out of live then I can't receive SKYPE calls or any other functionality setup for my xbox live account. They then can't watch live TV through the xbox either because I didn't set tv for other accounts. Even if I did set this up for each account I'd then have to manual keep the favorite channels setup/synced for each account.  This makes my life much harder when it's not needed.

 

If I want to use the web brower or PHT on windows and I want to switch users I'm not forced to log out of windows, then log back in as another user to use Plex.  Could you imagine this?  Why should any client work this way?

 

So for devices like PS4 and xBox keep the UNIFORM login approach and AS AN EXTRA OPTION if you want, allow it to be tied to a live account.  Let the user switch away from the normal universal login in the config.

 

Not specifically home related but sharing related.  I run two servers with different libs.  When ever I add new users and add the shares from both servers, users get two different invites (1 for each server).  This should not be needed. It's confusing to end users and only 10% except the 2nd invite without support from me.  What happens if I'm running 6 servers?  Why can't the user just except an "invite" from "me" and then any servers I add  are automatically added to their account.  It should work the same as if I added new libs to my main server (or only server).

 

PLEX-PASS LOGIN ISSUES
Many new client releases now require the check to see if the logged in user has a plex account. Android, xBox(s), PS4, etc.  This is BAD and is causing lots and lots of issues.  When xBox or Plex is doing any type of maintenance or having a problem or there is any type of internet issue this client is dead in the water.  This is ridiculous when/if both the client and the server are on the same LAN.  I should be able to pull my internet connection and everything in my house should continue to work (for a period of time). 

 

Plex needs to cache this information in an encrypted format on each server the client connects to or at the very least any server where the client is in the same subnet.  This information could be cached for 2 weeks or up to the expiration date of the plex-pass account (monthly users).  The client then checks for a local server as the first connection attempt and pulls the credentials from the local server.  The local server updates this information daily as the server is normally connected to the internet.  But if there are any issues the client is good for a period of time like 2 weeks.  This would get rid of problems associated with xbox live/ps4 DDOS attacks, Plex maintenance windows, Amazon or Internet issues.  If the user is a "shared" user without their own server the client should remember the servers it connected to previously and be able to get credentials from those servers.

 

MARKETING and PRODUCT RELEASES
There should be more of a standard as to what clients are available with a plex-pass account vs those you can't get with a plex-account. Some of this doesn't make sense. Why is android included but not iOS, windows?  I chalk this up to be more of a marketing issue and there should be a standard which will cause less confusion for users in general.

 

There should be a MINIMUM set of features that every client must meet before being considered a RELEASED client.  It's fine to release plex-pass early previews but keep them labeled as such and not as a released client.  Examples: Client must support TV Shows, Home Movies, Movies, Pictures, Music and must support all the normal filtering and searching. Client must include main windows user switching. Client must support SYNCing if appropriate (not on game boxes). These are just examples of course.  But it's frustrating to users when they see PS4 and xBox RELEASES when they only support a very minimal subset of core feature that are expected to be part of any Plex client.

 

POLICY CHANGES
We are all aware that Plex does not give out a development road map. This is sad because the real looser is Plex itself. The dev/design team does not get any feedback from the people using their systems in the real world.  Take for example the SYNCing.  Does anyone NOT THINK this would have been designed/delivered differently if the users of Plex could have contributed in the feature planning stages? Same with HOME or FILTERING.

 

I realize Plex has reasons for not wanted to release a road map to the general public but that doesn't mean that some users couldn't be selected to participate.  Imagine if 10 to 20 (even 5 to 10) plex users were selected and signed NDAs, given a private forum and were able to participate with developers/designers. Many of the "little" things would get caught in the design phase before a line of code was ever written making a better overall product for everyone and saving coding/design time because it was done correct the first time.

 

On a more general topic of road map.  Maybe a change in policy that would work for both Plex and users is that NEW features are kept in the dark as they are now (expect for the NDA users) BUT existing features/bug road maps are shared.  This doesn't mean timelines are given but there could be more transparency with what is worked on with existing features and bugs.  Going back to the earlier example, what is being done to "fix" syncing on both devices and the cloud.  To many people, this feature set is "junk" and doesn't work. This leaves a BAD IMPRESSION on users.  But maybe if we knew certain things were being currently worked on OR in the pipeline it would "sit" better with customers. Same with the very long standing issue of plex security. This is not a feature and there should be much more transparency as to what is being done to fix it.  Being told it's being worked on is getting old.  This is more than 1 year old and all Plex systems are at risk.

 

SERVER MANAGEMENT or LACK OFF
There are many, many things that are lacking in server management. How can it be that a "server" has no control over the amount of streams a client can have at one time or the amount of bandwidth or the types of transcoding that are allowed?  How can it be that the operator can not control who is and who isn't allowed to download files? How can it be that channels are not usable by any other user than the OP?  The list goes on and on...

 

I almost wish it was mandatory for each Plex employee to have to setup Media Portal, Media Browser 3 and Subsonic to see how these types of back-end issues are addressed.  Hell just use Subsonic as the base to play with.  Not the greatest interface but they got most of this stuff correct from a management standpoint.

 

SUMMARY

There are many terrific features in Plex and I don't want this post to distract from this fact.  However, I just feel that Plex could be so much better if some of this issues were addressed.

 

Am I over-reaching? Asking for too much?

What do you guys think?  

 

Carlo

2 Likes
2

I think your responses are reasoned and also your feelings mirror my own. Thank you for your well put rant, it certainly cuts to the nitty gritty of it all. I am considering a switch over to mediabrowser because of these issues you’ve raised, and I don’t make this point as a threat. I’ll always keep Plex installed, but its worth while to note it because of what your pushing people to.

3

When first reading the topic title my first thought was "here we go again". But your post is really thorough, and you can see you put some time and effort in it. Kudo's for that.

I think you hit most nails right on the head, and put in right wording how most of us feel.

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Carlo, I think you have put it perfectly. I honestly can't think of one thing you have said that I disagree with. Especially in your Marketing and Policy Changes section.

A software company not giving any kind of a road map or time frame for anything is kind of a cop out in my opinion (this is coming from a software developer btw). Sometimes giving your customers (especially the paying ones) a little glimpse into the direction you are going can get them to stick around when they otherwise my just say they are through and move to another platform. I realize releasing a full road map is prohibitive, but giving a time frame for certain bug fixes and such or at least getting on the forum and saying they are on the radar would be better than the utter silence that is usually received.

The marketing of Plex Pass itself has been a sore spot for me. The way it is marketed leaves the regular forum users in a tight spot. The way the main site reads it basically comes across to users that the Xbox apps (for example) are complete and you just need Plex pass to use them. In fact this is not the case, and more than a few users become outright angry. This would be better if Plex Employees would come in to help diffuse the situation, but it is nearly always handled by a regular forum member.

I have both the Windows Store and Windows Phone 8.1 apps so I check those sections often. A shout out to mfeingol for being so helpful to the users and interactive with them. I see nothing close to his level of representation in the other forums I frequent and it seems to have a very positive effect on the user base in that section. I think if more of the  forums sections had half that amount of effort (or a quarter?) the user base would be happier in general because some of the harder questions that we regular users just simply can't help with could be handled by an employee.

5

Wow, you pretty much totally summed it up there, you should be made community ambassador!

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Good post. Very valid points and well articulated.

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I agree with you 100% on having a bare-minimum set of features before a client can be released, and better branding of what is/isn't Plex Pass only.

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I just found Plex a couple weeks ago and I was so inspired by it I went out and bought a Mac Mini, setup a Plex server, and have moved most of my family's media collection onto it.  While I do think Plex is great, I do agree with many of the points outlined in the above argument.  I believe of all the points Carlo makes it is the general consistency and attention to detail that I would like to see focused on more than new features.

It is discouraging to find that sharing works at an album level in Music but doesn't work on an album level in Photos.  Or to find that you can play a genre of music on the web app but can't do so in Plex Home Theather.  Or that marketing says that members of a Plex Home should be able to sync even if they aren't the main account but in practice I'm unable to do so.  Somethings work here but don't work there. When new features are released you are left wondering if they feel that the old features are done even if they only work 80% as well as they could.

As a web developer of a platform that is far less complicated than Plex I can appreciate that it must be difficult to manage a complex product platform such as Plex.  But perhaps it is overly complicated.  Perhaps too many platforms are being supported?  I believe the products should be combed over and holes in minimum feature sets should be identified and Plex should commit to either fixing these or dropping support for the platform.. I believe a coherent vision as Carlo mentions of: "We must support a minimum of X features on a platform in order to consider the platform stable" would do wonders for Plex.

I was reading through the MediaBrowser forums on a post comparing Plex to MediaBrowser and what I learned is that people choose Plex because "it just works".. I believe this advantage is an important advantage to culture and grow.  

Again I do think it's a great platform, but only mention this because I believe it could be even better with the right attention to detail.

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I was reading through the MediaBrowser forums on a post comparing Plex to MediaBrowser and what I learned is that people choose Plex because "it just works".. I believe this advantage is an important advantage to culture and grow.

I would certainly agree with this sentiment as being the biggest reason. Another is that it is a bit easier on the eyes as well. When you look at the UI for Mediabrowser it is utility, no flash and not a lot of help, this is great for people that know what they are doing, but for new users is hard. Plex definitely needs to stay ahead in this bit, as feature for feature Mediabrowser is ahead.

I do have Mediabrowser setup in a VM for testing, but haven't set it up on the main server. I use the Xbox client way to much at the moment to switch.

10

For those considering MediaBrowser I would like to say Plex is quite a bit superior. This is not really the time and place to go into details but I would like to make a few points:

I have tried running MediaBrowser and find that it works and works well BUT it lacks many features that I use regularly.but I do have to say that installing, setup and basic use is initially easier than Plex. MediaBrowser's difficulties lie in the extended use and the maintenance of the database. It is MUCH harder and also more tedious to fix/alter the metadata that MediaBrowser finds on its own.

I primarily use a Roku for playing my media and the user interface for MediaBrowser is quite pretty but again kind of sloppy to use while Plex's just works and is smooth to use. This is true for the standard Plex channel on the Roku but if you use RARflix the Plex user interface becomes vastly superior.

The one advantage I have found for MediaBrowser seems to be that it runs well on a weaker computer. I have MediaBrowser running on a simple average Windows 7 computer that has a Passmark of less than 900 and it runs fine and even will transcode a single stream without a hitch. Plex will run on that machine but it rebuffers if transcoding.

I bought a lifetime PlexPass just to support Plex as I need none of the special PlexPass features. I just wanted to support Plex. If MediaBrowser offered a similar feature set for a similar price I would feel zero incentive to purchase it. MediaBrowser just does not offer enough reliability and special features for me to want to support them.

Bottom line is MediaBrowser seems just average while Plex feels like a premium product. Does Plex have some flaws? Yes. But even with those flaws it is superior to the competition.

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I do feel we shouldn't make this a discussion comparing the two.. I only used that point to illustrate what I believe should be a core focus on Plex.

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Excellently worded post.  I was trying to get to some similar points in another thread, I didn't come close to articulating them as well as you.

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Thanks for the feedback guys.  I wasn't sure if I was going off the deep end or not. :)

Glad (or Sad depending on how you look at it) that many of you feel the same way.

There is just so much potential in the Plex eco-system that it can get frustrating at times when you can't do what you want/need to do.

Carlo

PS Do any of you guys have any "Pet Peeves" I didn't cover with Plex that bother you (at a high level)?

14

I think your responses are reasoned and also your feelings mirror my own. Thank you for your well put rant, it certainly cuts to the nitty gritty of it all. I am considering a switch over to mediabrowser because of these issues you've raised, and I don't make this point as a threat. I'll always keep Plex installed, but its worth while to note it because of what your pushing people to.

I'm exploring MB again also.

A software company not giving any kind of a road map or time frame for anything is kind of a cop out in my opinion (this is coming from a software developer btw). Sometimes giving your customers (especially the paying ones) a little glimpse into the direction you are going can get them to stick around when they otherwise my just say they are through and move to another platform. I realize releasing a full road map is prohibitive, but giving a time frame for certain bug fixes and such or at least getting on the forum and saying they are on the radar would be better than the utter silence that is usually received.

The marketing of Plex Pass itself has been a sore spot for me. The way it is marketed leaves the regular forum users in a tight spot. The way the main site reads it basically comes across to users that the Xbox apps (for example) are complete and you just need Plex pass to use them. In fact this is not the case, and more than a few users become outright angry. This would be better if Plex Employees would come in to help diffuse the situation, but it is nearly always handled by a regular forum member.

I have both the Windows Store and Windows Phone 8.1 apps so I check those sections often. A shout out to mfeingol for being so helpful to the users and interactive with them. I see nothing close to his level of representation in the other forums I frequent and it seems to have a very positive effect on the user base in that section. I think if more of the  forums sections had half that amount of effort (or a quarter?) the user base would be happier in general because some of the harder questions that we regular users just simply can't help with could be handled by an employee.

Yep,  I'm a dev and large scale system architect and have probably worked with 20 to 30 of the top 50 INC 500 companies so I get around.  I also work in small agile dev groups. From years and years of experience (close to 30) what I've learned is that if there is not proper communication and iterations with the end users then what you deliver will not match what they want/expect.

We agree on all points.

Wow, you pretty much totally summed it up there, you should be made community ambassador!

Yea, well I've been known to stick my nose in things it doesn't belong. :) I'm also not afraid to say what's on my mind (good or bad). It's funny but this reminds me of the "interview question" what's your worst trait?  This is it for me. :)  I get involved with the users and try and deliver a product they NEED vs want they think they want (but after working with them and showing/demonstration).  It might delay schedules a bit but the users get what they need to do the job.

I agree with you 100% on having a bare-minimum set of features before a client can be released, and better branding of what is/isn't Plex Pass only.

It would sure make it easier in the forums where there is little "official support:. Calling a release what it "is" will not hurt sales but will put expectation where they should be.  Take the xBox/PS4.  If it were still "labeled" as an early working preview then people would have "expectations" or after reading proper forums would see it's a work in progress.  This would be a whole lot easier if there were more direct feedback in the forums from the devs (policies aside).

I would certainly agree with this sentiment as being the biggest reason. Another is that it is a bit easier on the eyes as well. When you look at the UI for Mediabrowser it is utility, no flash and not a lot of help, this is great for people that know what they are doing, but for new users is hard. Plex definitely needs to stay ahead in this bit, as feature for feature Mediabrowser is ahead.

I do have Mediabrowser setup in a VM for testing, but haven't set it up on the main server. I use the Xbox client way to much at the moment to switch.

Again I'm exploring this (MB) also.  I too have an xBox One (actually 2 of them) which I purchased specifically for Plex (not a gamer). I knew it was a "preview" release regardless of what it was officially called.  But with $800+ in in hard costs it is harder to "abandon" Plex to try something like MB.  Non-the-less I put costs aside and I'm presently exploring all options. Don't get me wrong, Plex is good but I still feel compelled to prove it to myself that I'm running the best media "portal" site for me, my family and my friends.  I could always run "dual" systems if needed.

For those considering MediaBrowser I would like to say Plex is quite a bit superior. This is not really the time and place to go into details but I would like to make a few points:

I have tried running MediaBrowser and find that it works and works well BUT it lacks many features that I use regularly.but I do have to say that installing, setup and basic use is initially easier than Plex. MediaBrowser's difficulties lie in the extended use and the maintenance of the database. It is MUCH harder and also more tedious to fix/alter the metadata that MediaBrowser finds on its own.

I primarily use a Roku for playing my media and the user interface for MediaBrowser is quite pretty but again kind of sloppy to use while Plex's just works and is smooth to use. This is true for the standard Plex channel on the Roku but if you use RARflix the Plex user interface becomes vastly superior.

The one advantage I have found for MediaBrowser seems to be that it runs well on a weaker computer. I have MediaBrowser running on a simple average Windows 7 computer that has a Passmark of less than 900 and it runs fine and even will transcode a single stream without a hitch. Plex will run on that machine but it rebuffers if transcoding.

I bought a lifetime PlexPass just to support Plex as I need none of the special PlexPass features. I just wanted to support Plex. If MediaBrowser offered a similar feature set for a similar price I would feel zero incentive to purchase it. MediaBrowser just does not offer enough reliability and special features for me to want to support them.

Bottom line is MediaBrowser seems just average while Plex feels like a premium product. Does Plex have some flaws? Yes. But even with those flaws it is superior to the competition.

While I do agree it's not politically correct to talk about another product in a vendors forum. It's not like they have "blinders on". At least I hope not. :)  They are/should be aware of what the competition is doing. Each system has weeks and strengths. I hate to say it but MB is gaining ground quickly on Plex.  Unless something changes the "tides might change" in 6 to 9 months. I hope that's not the case but I'm calling it like I see it (or what I'm privy to).

Good thread thus far and I'm glad you guys didn't take the initial OP post the wrong way (which no one did thus far).

Carlo

PS: Any wagers how long before we get a response from Elan or other Plex employee? We know they have read it by now. :)

15

...

PS: Any wagers how long before we get a response from Elan or other Plex employee? We know they have read it by now. :)

I'd bet on never but that bet can only lose as any post by Plex will cause a loss and never never actually arrives. So, no bet.  ;)

Plex really has no reason to respond as no matter what they say it can, and will, be misinterpreted by many people. By not posting they leave everyone wondering but by posting they invite everyone to read between the lines. If there are no lines you cannot read between them.

Plex needs just to continue development and allow their better programmers to develop the apps/channels as fast as they can without introducing bugs. 

The one thing they seem to be doing wrong is holding up development on some devices so the others can catch up. This is wrong. Each developer should be allowed to move forward as fast as the developer(s) involved can move without any worry about weather any other device or developer can advance as far or as fast as long as serious bugs are avoided.

Trying for uniformity by limiting the best is a as bad as not advancing at all.

16

Wow. This is the best post I've read on here in a long time. A lot of the points you made have been weighing on my mind for a while but I never said anything for fear of coming off like a jerk. I love Plex but it doesn't make sense to me to keep adding new features when so many of the features that already exist don't work properly. I wasn't even aware of the Plex Pass login issue until a couple of nights ago when Plex was down for maintenance and I couldn't access the server from the same computer that it's installed on. I don't want to be mean but that is beyond poor design.

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PS Do any of you guys have any "Pet Peeves" I didn't cover with Plex that bother you (at a high level)?

I'm still kicking the tires of both Plex and MediaBrowser as a replacement for Windows Media Center, and while there's much to like in both of them, there are still significant shortcomings in both for my usage. Both are primarily focused on Movies and video; photos and music are very much second-class citizens in their worlds.

For example, neither support or expose Tags (neither descriptive, people, nor geotags) in photo metadata. So forget about being able to slap on an instant slideshow of all your photos of cousin Fred when he comes to visit, or a slideshow of your trip to Niagara Falls.

Music is also not well supported. Being a classical music fan, I miss being able to search and select music by Composer in both Plex and MediaBrowser - something that WMC has been able to do since 2004. Plex also can't support music albums that are box sets - it mashes together the tracks into the wrong order. Gapless playback is another thing it doesn't do.

There's also the potential security hole in the Plex architecture for remote streaming/access to your media.

All of these issues have been flagged for years by the user community, but the Plex developers continue to focus on their first love of Movies and Video/TV shows. If that's your first love, then Plex will be of interest.

More info here: https://gcoupe.wordpress.com/2014/10/21/whither-next-a-media-center-journey/

18

+1 for an excellent, well written post. Of the 'issues' raised, SYNCING is the biggest pain for me as sometimes it works and sometimes not...or it loses sync status when I'm in a hotel 300 miles from home...etc.

Agree with comments on roadmap - whilst I'm not a developer, I am a consultant in IT and know only too well that clients want to see (at a high level) what the environment could like like / operate like in 3, 6, 12, 24 months. I can understand why a detailed plan isn't published but perhaps some 'vision' or general statements - as an example, we waited 24months+ for HOME with no real information being passed to us and whilst it works pretty well for parental control, it's not perfect. How much better would a statement of 'single server, multiple user account in development; ALPHA due xx/xx/xx (private testing), BETA due xx/xx/xx (limited testing)" or similar. No one is going to held to any dates but gives us (customers) an idea of what's happening.

19

Plex has a very Apple-esque way of doing things — their 'behind closed doors' road map is a testament to that.

And, much like Apple, I think we have been seeing a shift towards popular features, rather than core technology.

Most of what you complain about definitely falls under the power-user umbrella.

I have a feature request asking for better buffering that is number two on the most-liked list (of all requests yet to be addressed).

It's almost 2 and a half years old, and we haven't even gotten a developer to stop by and write a few words.

This is the reaction to your post that you should expect.

20

But regarding filtering: if we could instead have basic logic operators such as AND, OR, NOT, and some parenthesis, we could accomplish so much without mucking up the interface.