Why is there no setting in both the server and players for 30 mbps or xx mbps for 4K UHD playback? This might be useful for those who want to bandwidth limit streams but have the headroom for a number of 4K streams or have 4K files with very high bitrates.
Just to be clear, I know this is possible - 4K to 4K transcode. Just asking about the option being available.
because Plex only transcodes to H.264 currently not H.265
Could you flesh that out a little. I’m sure I’m supposed to be making a reference with that response. I’m not sure what it is. Thanks.
I’m referring to transcoding to H.264 and losing HDR if required. Is is not possible to transcode to H.264 at a certain mbps and save bandwidth? Compared to the 100+ mbps the 4K HDR remux files are streaming at now, almost anything will be bandwidth saving.
Handbrake offers file sizes and bit rates
The players allow you to make a selection about resolution and, to a limited extent, bitrate.
PMS itself also allows you to set streaming bitrate limits when sending to remote players.
This is the limit of the granularity available.
I was pretty certain that was the granularity available, hence the question. Thanks for restating that.
I believe that the option to limit streaming to 1080p to 20 mbps exists for the same reason I’m asking for the option for limit streaming for 4K content to a certain limit - to save bandwidth for both the users and server admin, if preferred. I asked why it wasn’t available. You spoke of Plex being able to only transcodes to H.264 currently not H.265 without an explanation of how it relates. I’m asking why it can’t do the same for 4K content? You’re telling me the exact limitations that started my questions.
There’s a way to treat a question from a user, let alone a paying customer, especially when representing a brand. I’ve posed several questions over the forum, have provided solutions and have always remained polite and cooperative. I’ve not had an experience like this with someone representing Plex. They’ve always found out why something’s a problem and try to help or at least tell why it can’t be helped with clear explanations. If you can’t see what’s wrong with your tone and the objectivity of your responses, I doubt me making a case about it will help.
I strongly doubt I’ll get a answer and an apology. That’s fine, please spare me the defense though. Thanks for your time.
How about we both rewind this and try again?
I am sorry if I misunderstood your initial statement, requests and inquery.
If I am understanding your request, which i ask you to help me refine, is;
a. Extend bitrate limiting to those videos which are 2160p ?
b. Support 2160 -> 2160 transcoding ? If so, please state what would need transcoding at 2160p. The video format?
Thank you for asking. My apologies if i misread your tone and overreacted.
It’s not a request as much as a question. If there are technical limitations or other reasons as to why this would be a bad idea, I’m happy to accept that as well.
My understanding is that the Plex transcoder isn’t just to solve incompatibility in media format. It’s also used as a robust tool to handle network usage for both server admin and streamer, in regards to Plex. Players and servers have several options spanning across even a single quality for that reason, among others.
I recall seeing the option to transcode to 4k 30 mbps some time back. I’m pretty certain it was on the Windows or Mac app, though I can’t be entirely sure. I’m wondering why it isn’t available in more platforms. Even if my recollection fails, the question still remains.
If using the AVplayer and we play a 4K HEVC HDR movie with PGS it will force a transcode from HEVC 4k to H.264 4K. I’m assuming HDR is lost with the downstep to 8 bit. Plex does handle the conversion it just doesn’t bitrate limit the stream, unlike what it would do if we were transcoding to 1080p. Why it this so? Will limiting it to 30/xx mpbs degrade the picture quality too much? At a direct conversation the bitrate for H.264 would be higher than HEVC for the same quality, I assume. In the AVplayer it does this for compatibility and to counter the fact that HEVC to HEVC can’t be handled. But limiting its bitrate to 30-50 mpbs might give it an extended use case.
With practically every streaming player supporting H.264 and more and more streaming players supporting HEVC and having no players (as far as i know) that can HW enc/dec the higher profiles that allow H.264 10 bit, I can see why that would be a niche case and am not asking about that.
To summarize from above, wouldn’t HEVC to H.264 8 bit transcodes at lower bitrates be an actual use case just like the other transcode options. Is this use case seen as valid and being worked on or are there technical challenges or reasons on why this is a terrible idea that I don’t understand? Please shed some light.
Additionally moving forward, wouldn’t HEVC 4K to HEVC 4K transcodes at lower bitrates be an actual use case just like the other transcode options, especially so with the prevalence of players that support HEVC. Is this use case seen as valid and being worked on?
Thank you for your time.
I’ll do my best to answer your questions which will likely bring a few more. All perfectly normal.
You’re correct; the transcoder is a multi-capability tool for both performing translations as well as limiting bandwidth utilization by lowering audio/video bitrates.
For those devices which can’t handle a particular video format, it converts (encoding, max device bit rate, and even color space display).
Devices which can’t handle a particular audio format, the audio is converted to best possible which it can play.
Lastly, and usually most CPU intensive, are subtitles. Some devices can handle PGS subtitles while others can’t. Some can’t handle any, even text-based.
The player is largely in control of each playback.
a. Player settings as defined by the user
b. Physical device capabilities as reported by the TV/tablet/phone
PMS takes all the limitations of the player and transport into consideration, maps these against the media selected, at the moment playback is requested and decides the highest level of quality it can provide. (best playback experience)
Currently,
After all the limitations are collected, PMS makes one final determination:
Can it DirectPlay the media file (sent it as is, including the container./extension, without alteration, inclusive of audio/video/subtitles).
Can the video stream be sent without alteration, inclusive of any subtitle involvement, be sent if the container/extension is changed. This is known as DirectStream.
If the video needs to be altered; to change encoding (H265->H264, MPEG2 -> H264, etc), HDR -> SDR, burn subtitles into the output video image, This is a full Transcode.
The audio is secondary If video is unaltered but audio needs conversion, It’s still a “Direct Stream” task. that’s about all we need say there.
Now speaking to your use-case of allowing playback and transcoding of H.265 -> H.265 targets.
Lowering bandwidth required, as you know, discards bits used for quality and crisp edges. How much to throw away is subjective. Only you can make that determination as to what is within your tolerance.
Yes, even though most 2160p H.265 HDR videos off the disk often exceed 100 Mbps spikes, some of that can be omitted without ever noticing unless you have a very large projection home theater capable of it.
The existing Plex transcoder doesn’t support H265 as the target. There is a new transcoder in forum preview now (first forum drop over the weekend). I haven’t had a chance to see what Engineering has given us yet. It might have support for H.265 -> H.265
If given the ability to send 30 Mbps of H.265 versus 30 Mbps of H.264, the choice is obvious. H.265 is a vastly superior codec and provides a much better image quality at the same bitrate.
You spoke of players. I have several AppleTV 4K’s in my home. They are innately capable of transcoding a 2160 HEVC HDR stream onto my 1080p SDR television. It’s flawless. Tone mapping and everything is there. This is very much mainstream and, imho, not a niche.
I hope I addressed everything?
Thanks for explaining more about the transcoder, its function, purpose and capabilities in detail.
The question was about whether we can benefit from further transcoding options in the players and in the server settings under “Limit remote bitstream”. Namely having one or several transcode options that provide 4K at different bitrates, just like the other resolutions. For example, 4K - 30 mbps, 4K - 40 mbps, 4K - 50 mbps. These rates are examples. The Plex team will be infinitely more qualified to make this determinations as they’ve capably done for other resolutions. I believe there is benefit in these options for both the streamer and the server admin in regards to bandwidth saving. The question is, why isn’t this available? (I’m referring to transcode options on 4K resolution) Are there specific challenges, or is the request somehow invalid on technical grounds or is it already being worked on given that the Plex team has been rolling out incredible updates to the player at a rather rapid rate.
The transcoder logic can remain with the transcoder. It can determine the best compression standard be it H.264 or HEVC as it should. That is immaterial to providing transcode options of 4K at specified bitrates - bitrates that are determined by the Plex Team as with all other resolutions. Similarly the native capability of each player to provide on device enc/dec on the mpv player is immaterial. We’re talking about having an option to request a certain resolution at a certain bitrate, just like the other resolutions. The server, transcoder and device can make the determinations as to what is the best format to send that video just as it does for other qualities.
In summary, I believe having several trascoding options/targets at the 4K resolution with differing bitrates, the way it is for almost every other resolution, can be beneficial for Plex users/admins at large in regards to bandwidth saving. The same sentmient I believe the Plex Team harbors when providing options of different bitrates at the same resolution for many of the available resolutions. Can we expect this feature? If not, why?
I’m separating this since it is inconsequential to the larger argument for the most part. I suspect it could have been lost in translation or at worst been a mistake on my part. I have four AppleTV 4Ks and I agree with everything you’ve said in regards to the players. I think you misread or I might not have been clear as I should have been. The niche case I was referring to was transcoding it to H.264 10 bit, the higher H.264 profiles like Hi10P, which has almost no widespread enc/dec support, as far as my limited knowledge goes, for both consumer players and server side consumer gpus. I brought this up simply to say that its only logical to focus on HEVC to H.264 transocding, HEVC to HEVC transcoding, H.264 to H.264 (can be added to cover all bases), transcoding, at specifed bitrates when dealing with 4K to 4K transcoding, since most media types, use cases, enc/dec engines will cater for these conversions.
Regarding increasing the level of granularity in the players: I don’t see Engineering getting that fine. Plex’s philosophy is more of a “click and play” than “click, decide what I want based on my technical expertise level, and play” foundation. IMHO, what you request for here is niche and most likely why I would not expect it. The best analogy I can offer is MacOS vs Windows. Plex is more MacOS like. “Click - done”. Your request strikes me as more “Windows” or even “Linux” like where I can get my fingers dirty. Most of what I’ve read says that customers want to pick up the TV remote and click “Play” without worry about “Now how do I play this again?”.
That having been said, there is NO harm in making a feature request / joining another feature request to enhance the existing granularity. I have seen several. Engineering often surprises us with their decisions.
Regarding 10bit H.264, I would not expect any forward motion on it. Yes, it’s in the specification but hollywood opted to go with H.265 10bit. I’m afraid that ship has sailed.
This is probably why you see no widespread support for it; everyone jumped on the HEVC HDR bandwagon when it was finally ratified.
I would have, I just was relatively sure I’ve seen the option 4k 30 mbps before on the desktop apps. Posed the question on the premise why isn’t there support for it in more players. Given you made no mention of it existing and that I can’t find it anymore, I’ll do just that.
I really fail to see what’s so niche about it or as you describe Linux or Windows-like about having one or two options called 4K XX mbps along with all the other transcode options. Its basically another two lines of options along with the other ten or so already present. Those options made a lot of sense, and with the prevalence of 4K screens now - both SDR and HDR - I think adding 4K resolutions is simply the next step.
That was my point, that there is no point expecting or working on it.
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