I realise this is kind of a Handbrake centred subject, but as I’m using Plex to send my videos to my TV I thought I’d ask the community. Can anyone take a look at what I’m doing and see if anything is totally nuts? It all seems to work for me, but I want my DVDs archived in the best way possible.
Most of my PAL (720x576) DVDs have some junk picture information/underscan at the edges - black bars of varying widths [EDIT: in the image below it’s very minimal, but on other DVDs it can be a lot wider and vary on both left and right edges]. If I left Handbrake to its default settings, there would be no automatic cropping and my output MKV file includes the underscan/bars. I’ve tested this in Plex (and VLC) and of course the TV displays the underscan/bars as part of the 4:3 picture.
So, I have started to set my Width & Height to match the source, and manually cropping the bars to suit each video. The resultant mkv displays perfectly without being cropped by the TV and is in the right aspect, but I realise that by cropping in this way I will probably be altering the display size away from a true 4:3 ratio. I realise I’ll be scaling the image up to match the source, but a) this seemed the intuitive thing to do, and b) I’ve compared frame-grabs of the DVD and the mkv file and they’re almost perfect copies, so if it is scaling things up it’s not causing any quality problems.
I’m sure that someone out there will know what a true 4:3 crop setting should be, but as the amount of overscan varies massively from show to show, it seems that a one-size-fits-all approach to perfect 4:3 cropping could be overkill or incorrect depending on how much overscan is there to begin with. I’m not altering the cropping by much, so even though it won’t be perfect 4:3, it is unnoticeably close to it. So, does any of this matter?
I don’t understand why you’re doing all the effort. Handbrake’s default settings do include cropping the picture… it’s been working just fine when I last had to run a video through Handbrake.
However… unless you’re into heavy mobile streaming or running out of storage, you could keep the video just the way you archived it. No need to transcode.
Thanks for replying. If I drop my DVD ISO right into Handbrake the auto cropping isn’t good enough - often it almost does nothing, other times it’s not too bad. Perhaps that’s down to the PAL source / particular shows I’m dealing with at the moment. Either way I always have to check the auto crop, so by the time I’ve done that I may as well just tweak it to suit.
re: transcoding. Yes - I’m going for quality so I’m actually streaming locally at original quality through Plex via Roku which is working fine.
quality/transcoding… I referred to keeping things in their source format, e.g. ripping the dvd content to a MKV file with no transcoding as e.g. done with Handbrake.
with the DVD you get a compressed source (usually mpeg2 encoded). while it’s true that the formats used by Handbrake (e.g. h264 or h265) are more advanced, it’s still a compressed transcode of a compressed source – leaving the question: why do you transcode it in the first place? (if e.g. file size isn’t an issue).
Hi Tom - you’re right, what I meant to say was: I’m transcoding to reduce file size / storage space - but to the highest quality vs filesize settings that I can get. At the moment I’m shaving about 1/3 off the original ISO but with almost no appreciable degradation. Some people wouldn’t bother, but I have a lot of media and really need to get things out of ISO and into a smaller more convenient filetype.
There’s a setting in HB that turns on autocropping - if it’s off - it’s, uh, not on.
On the Video Settings Tab, tick autocropping, save as the profile you’re building - and if you’re not building a profile - you should be.
God only knows what some of that preset crap does, but a whole bunch of it is probably not good.
Handbrake Guide in my signature.
720x576 is the media storage for PAL DVDs. 4:3 content isn’t exactly 720x576, but if the 4:3 tag is properly set it will find it’s own way.
NTSC DVDs are stored at 720x480.
4:3 displays at 640x480
16:9 displays at 854x480
and all flavors of widescreen fall in there somewhere when you crop off the black vertical bars - or HB does it for you.
Yes, on my version of HB (1.1.0) the cropping setting is on the Dimensions tab and it toggles between Auto and Custom. When it’s on it gives different cropping results depending on the source - my source ISOs are old shows that seem to have a lot of underscan variance within a single episode. The auto cropping does its best, but its never quite right.
Re: Presets, yes - I have a range of presets, usually several for each show so that I can switch between various custom crop settings.
re: 720x576 PAL etc: So you’re saying that as long as I have my Width and Height set to match the source (as in the image above) I can crop however I like as HB will correctly tag it as 4:3 content. ? (If that’s right then it’s all good and I can keep using my method - even if my custom cropping results in a display size that isn’t perfect 4:3. {EDIT - from a few tests in HB with auto-cropping I realised that HB generates different display size ratios in any case…! So even the program itself isn’t cropping to achieve some sort of perfect 4:3 ratio. Might as well keep doing what I’m doing then… Which really only leaves the question of whether I should be matching the w&h to the source - AKA scaling up my cropped image…})
If you’re just cropping a few pixels it wont make any difference. As you crop, if Anamorphic is set to automatic, you’ll see a display size. Adjust the crop on one side or the top until you get 4:3, or as close as you can.
For me, 720x480 is the storage. 640x480 is 4:3. 854x480 is 16:9. I don’t know what PAL resolutions are, but you better find out.
In my experience it doesn’t matter which aspect ratio comes out due to the cropping.
Just let it be.
By setting the picture dimensions to the full 720x576 px of a PAL picture while cropping is enabled, you may end up enlarging the picture slightly, which does nothing for the picture quality.
@OttoKerner said:
By setting the picture dimensions to the full 720x576 px of a PAL picture while cropping is enabled, you may end up enlarging the picture slightly, which does nothing for the picture quality.
Thanks - I’ve compared frame grabs to see if the enlargement is causing any issues and (although it may be down to my compression settings) there isn’t any quality issues beyond what you’d expect from transcoding.
But, out of interest, do you know what I should ideally be doing instead of setting the w&h to match the source? If I drop an ISO into HB it puts in height and width automatically - but it will vary from ISO to ISO. For instance, I just tested that with two ISOs (both with 4:3 content) and got this:
ISO 1
Source: 720x576
Width: 696 Height:572
ISO 2
Source: 720x576
Width: 684 Height: 572
So, are you saying that HB is setting the picture dimensions automatically to whatever is correct (1:1) for the content, and that I should leave the h&w as they are and just go on and do my cropping from there?
I’m guessing that doing that would leave the scaling to my TV - e.g: I’ve been upscaling my cropped video to720x576 (which could lead to some picture quality issues) which is really just doing the TVs job ahead of time.
When I’m ripping DVDs the original storage size is ALWAYS 720x480 (for you, it’s 720x576). That’s as much as the DVD can handle. Professionally manufactured DVDs will always hold that size. No more.
I put in my DVD, I crop any few lines of nonsense around the edges, if any, or any Black Bars that show up (for Widescreen). After that if my source size has moved I bump it back up to it’s max - it actually shouldn’t have changed, but the ‘Display Size’ will have changed after cropping. You adjust one, or both sides, then one or both top and bottom until you get the ‘Display Size’ back up to the intended aspect ratio - or get as close as you can and stop sweating it.
Due to a Moron on the Loose out there somewhere, these’ll eventually need replacing:
Note: got close enough - stopped worrying about it - for something that will eventually be done right (if I live long enough).
Or you can stop worrying about storage and encode raw, square pixel material in some caveman approach - like Plex does with it’s transcoder on DVD material…:
With Anamorphic set to None:
4:3 - encode at 640x480 <— or whatever that is for PAL <—better be finding out what those real numbers are…
16:9 is 854x480 <---- or whatever that is for PAL…
Personally, I think that’s kinda ignernt - but do whatever you have to what makes you feel good, Boudreaux…
The VERY FIRST thing you gotta wrap your head around is that for DVDS there is:
Storage
and
Display
two very different wild animals, but once you get those bad boys tamed - the rest is easy.
@JuiceWSA said:
I put in my DVD, I crop any few lines of nonsense around the edges, if any, or any Black Bars that show up (for Widescreen). After that if my source size has moved I bump it back up to it’s max - it actually shouldn’t have changed, but the ‘Display Size’ will have changed after cropping. You adjust one, or both sides, then one or both top and bottom until you get the ‘Display Size’ back up to the intended aspect ratio - or get as close as you can and stop sweating it.
Thanks for the explanation - this is the same as the method I’ve used so far: I set my source size to the max allowed by the format (in my case 720x576) and then crop as I see fit. If the source size moves (which is does when I change from Title to Title) I adjust it back up to the max.
I’m not looking to get too hung-up over cropping to a perfect 4:3 display size as it’s almost impossible to get right - especially when the cropping varies so much from ISO to ISO; but if you’re saying that aiming for as close to 4:3 as possible is okay then that’s okay with me
The difference you cite above is due to Handbrake applying its automatic cropping.
If you add the pixels it has cropped, you’ll see that it amounts to a full PAL picture of 720x576
Material with an Anamorphic Setting within (while using one of the Anamporphic Styles… read: Not None) should see the source remain steady while any cropping will change the Display Size. You also want to have the “Keep Aspect Ratio” enabled. While cropping, the Aspect Ratio will be maintained (within a pixel or two) and you’ll see what that’s doing to the Display Size - the source shouldn’t move - unless there’s some badness in the encode confusing matters for Handbrake or you’re using ‘None’ and that means you’re changing the source to square pixels so that it fits the material within. <---- just like Plex’s Goofy Transcoder… lol
The bump arrows next to the source dimensions change the source, of course, the cropping arrows - should - only be changing the Display Size.
If ‘Display Size’ goes out of whack and you want to bring it back - fiddle around with cropping until it makes you happy - or satisfies your OCD, or do as Otto suggests (has no OCD issues, apparently), and just don’t worry about it.
If you shave off pixels from the edges of a picture, the size of the picture will be reduced.
Unless you are also enlarging the picture afterwards. But doing so makes no sense.
Thanks for all of your input guys
I currently keep my anamorphic setting to Automatic which seems to lock the aspect ratio of the source height & width thankfully (and seems to work correctly with 16:9 sources too). After that I’m just making sure the h&w match the source and then custom cropping to suit.I’ll avoid total OCD with 4:3 by simply cropping in a balanced way if you see what I mean.
Although I know I’m essentially cropping and then enlarging by matching my h&w with the source, my frame grab comparisons show no real penalty for doing that, so all in all I think I’ll keep it simple and carry on with this method.
@Demat said:
Although I know I’m essentially cropping and then enlarging by matching my h&w with the source, my frame grab comparisons show no real penalty for doing that, so all in all I think I’ll keep it simple and carry on with this method.
Yea, you and almost everyone else on Earth is doing much the same, for obvious reasons, but God Dammit!, there’s a proper way and if you’re not doing it, you suck! And it makes no sense to suck. Why do you insist on sucking?
(I think you have a complete understanding what happens, when you do, what you do, which explains perfectly, why you, and I, do it)
Well it seems there’s a right and a wrong way to suck with all of this, so I’d rather be the right class of sucker!
And yeh, it does explain a lot if most people do it this way. A week ago I knew nothing about Plex or Handbrake - now at least I know how to suck at it properly lol.
Well said. I think that if I’ve ended up comparing frame grabs (which I have, and lots) then I’ve probably lost some of my sanity already. My conclusion after this thread is that if it looks right and plays right then it probably is right. Right, back to ripping my library!
