I never got Forced English Subtitles working right outside of burning them in with HandBreak. So I’m trying to flag it using MKVToolNix but that doesn’t seem to be working right. I think I identify the Forced English Subtitle fine, but when I go to play it it’s playing the normal English Subtitle, even though it’s marked as Forced on the selection as you see below. Can anyone that has it working right walk me through the right steps? Would def appreciate it!
The may be a silly question, but have you tried setting the player to the non-forced sub track and seeing what happens? It’s possible you just got mixed up which track is really the forced track and flagged them wrong. There are disc rips I’ve done and, even though the disc defaults to English audio and forced subs when played, when I check the actual streams I find out the forced subs were really the second subtitle track, or the first audio track wasn’t even the English audio, etc.
Yup, looks like it’s the same file. Here’s the output in Mediainfo. Am I missing something somewhere that the Force English isn’t being flagged or something? That leads me to believe it’s the same file it’s mixing together or something.
My Blu-ray rip of Black Panther has no forced subtitle track.
Use the Text formatted output in Media Info. Look at the Count of Elements for each subtitle track. Make sure they’re not the same track. FYI, for some reason, the “Count of Elements” is twice the number of subtitle lines.
You can also use Subtitle Edit to examine the subtitle tracks. You don’t have to run OCR on the entire track. Just open the movie in the application. You can see timings, number of lines, etc.
Text
ID : 6
ID in the original source medium : 4608 (0x1200)
Format : PGS
Codec ID : S_HDMV/PGS
Codec ID/Info : Picture based subtitle format used on BDs/HD-DVDs
Duration : 2 h 14 min
Bit rate : 32.6 kb/s
Count of elements : 3670
Stream size : 31.2 MiB (0%)
Language : English
Default : Yes
Forced : No
Original source medium : Blu-ray
Mine from my original blu-ray rip shows:
Text #1
ID : 6
ID in the original source medium : 4608 (0x1200)
Format : PGS
Codec ID : S_HDMV/PGS
Codec ID/Info : Picture based subtitle format used on BDs/HD-DVDs
Duration : 2h 14mn
Bit rate : 32.6 Kbps
Count of elements : 3670
Stream size : 31.2 MiB (0%)
Language : English
Default : No
Forced : Yes
Original source medium : Blu-ray
Shouldn’t that be it since Forced showed as Yes? I think that’s what’s confusing me. I wonder why on yours it doesn’t.
So think my best chance here is to simply burn them in using handbrake (assuming that’ll work)?
That’s the full sub track with 3670 - if you burn that one you burn the full track into the video. Not what you want I’m gonna guess - but what you’ll get.
From here:
https://subscene.com/subtitles/black-panther-2018-1
I found these and named them something silly (I’m sure):
Black Panther (2018).eng.forced.zip (1.7 KB)
But chances are those are the ones you didn’t get off the BluRay - and since they’re text based - will Direct Play on everything but your wristwatch -and maybe that too.
Plex may never actually pick those forced subs automatically - it depends where they are - embedded/external - and what order they’re in. If embedded - forced better be first. Not sure what happens for externals, but at least if they’re marked/named properly - you can pick the right ones.
For the record:
ALL those tracks marked Forced in MakeMKV?
ARE EMPTY!
If there are any forced tracks they’ll be a separate track (that will also have an empty forced slot) and they’ll be the ones with the fewest elements.
For the record - Bonus Round:
It’s easier and way faster - to go get suitable srt subs than to sit through an OCR Session with Subtitle Edit - the most vile experience since the Plex App on Fire TV.
That’s where I go - and only OCR - when there is no other option.
For the record - The After Party:
When checking my Black Panther, I found I had the forced track (from Subscene), but not the full track. Easy enough to get some for myself, while I was getting some for you… (the timing is perfect, BTW):
I used to think I knew what was going on with Forced Subs, but turned out I didn’t - so I’m pretty sure the Forced track is on 'cause I picked it at some point.
You’ll have to let us know what happens at your house, but at least at my house they’ll be marked/named so I can identify and select them manually, if necessary.
Confused?
Good - everybody else is - welcome to the party…lol
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As @JuiceWSA mentions, with 3670 elements, that is the regular subtitle track. Most forced subtitle tracks have a few hundred or less elements.
Example: In Avatar, MediaInfo lists the full subtitle track with 3343 elements. The forced subtitle track, which is when the characters speak Na’vi, has 165 elements.
Here’s what I do:
For media I keep as Blu-ray rips, I flag the embedded subtitles appropriately and/or use external subtitles.
For media I process with Handbrake, I burn in forced subtitles. I’m transcoding the video anyway, so easy to burn in the forced subtitle track. Obviously, this won’t work if you need to keep the forced subtitle track in multiple languages.
My experience with forced subtitles:
-
Plex honors the forced flag for embedded subtitles in the MVK container (not sure about MP4). When you add a new movie/show to Plex and it has a subtitle track flagged as forced, Plex will auto pick it.
-
Plex prefers external forced subtitles over embedded forced subtitles. Add a movie/show with both embedded forced and external forced. Plex picks the external track by default.
-
Plex remembers your last subtitle choice. So, if you turn off a forced track or choose another track, Plex will remember it the next time you watch the movie/show. If you want to see the forced subtitles again you will have to manually choose the track.
NOTE: All my language settings & subtitles are English. No idea what happens if you mix language settings in libraries, subtitles, etc.
No… it just picks the first track. (if Always on is selected - it is at my house, at least)
Is that where you put yours?
Me too.
Yes, came as quite a shock, actually.
Plex picks the forced subtitle track for me, even when it is not the first track.
Ran a quick test. Added Avatar Blu-ray rip to a test movie library. Forced subtitle track is the second track and it is auto-picked in Plex for Windows & Plex Web. I added only the MKV file to the library. No external subtitles.
MediaInfo for subtitle tracks is below. I don’t remember how the default/forced flags were set when I ripped the disc with MakeMKV. I set them as shown, using MKVToolNix, when I initially added the movie to my Plex Server.
Server Settings → Languages
- Auto select audio & subtitle tracks: checked
- Prefer audio tracks in: English
- Subtitle Mode: Shown with foreign audio
- Prefer subtitles in: English
Here’s the subtitle section from MediaInfo:
Text #1
ID : 4
Format : PGS
Codec ID : S_HDMV/PGS
Codec ID/Info : Picture based subtitle format used on BDs/HD-DVDs
Duration : 2 h 40 min
Bit rate : 33.2 kb/s
Count of elements : 3343
Stream size : 38.2 MiB (0%)
Title : English SDH
Language : English
Default : Yes
Forced : No
Text #2
ID : 5
Format : PGS
Codec ID : S_HDMV/PGS
Codec ID/Info : Picture based subtitle format used on BDs/HD-DVDs
Duration : 2 h 30 min
Bit rate : 1 966 b/s
Count of elements : 165
Stream size : 2.12 MiB (0%)
Title : Na'vi
Language : English
Default : No
Forced : Yes
Screenshot from Plex for Windows:
Different for me - I think - with Always on enabled.
I will have to wait for a new item with forced subs to test, however.
I’m told, with Always on enabled, Plex blows right past Forced and selects the full track, unless it’s first. I’m pretty sure I have some test items in that stack - I’m trying to ignore… (for a while)…lol
I have a Roku - have you heard?
The Roku has ‘On Replay’ - which means if the subs are on and selected, if I hit back a few times to catch something I missed (often, these days) the subs come on until I get to the point where I was… then they fade out. Naturally I want them on, but if there’s a Forced Track, that means I can’t speak that language so I’d want those on, of course.
Well, that’s user logic.
Developer logic is much different. Apparently. Unless something has changed recently.
I’m trying to ensure the full track actually contains the Foreign Language lines - in the event I have them ‘Always on’ in the Roku, but if not - I’ll have to Select the Forced track manually. <— that does not compute to a user. Danger, Will Robinson The User - Party Time, Will Robinson The Developer.
Yeah. I can see where that could make a difference. I have not tried with subtitles set to always on.
FYI, Plex LG app and Android TV app on Shield also pick the forced subtitle.
There’s a rumor going around. 
Nice!
Yeah, I’ve noticed that some do and some don’t.
<sarcasm> That’s when you get to put on a happy face and think, “Yay! I get to sharpen my Subtitle Edit skills!” </sarcasm>
I have enough of those to drive me to subscene - if there’s an OCR session looming like a Killer Chinese Virus over my A.O. - and I’m absolutely certain that’s what drove me there to get Black Panther subs (that do work like a charm). I also have enough SE Skills to sync subs ‘not exactly’ for something I have - to thwart the vile OCR Session. I’ll almost take some in a language I don’t speak and translate 'em… (often not very useful, but does provide extraordinary entertainment value).
Okay, so learned some new things about subtitles I didn’t know before! Looked at my original rip and yeah, I wasn’t selecting the right one. It was actually the Text #3 one. Just re-muxed it and it worked great! Couldn’t believe it haha. So that’s what I should look for in the subtitles, the one with the smallest elements?
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99% yes. There is always the exception. Some movies include subtitles for audio commentaries. Also, some movies may have “pop up bubbles” with interesting/humorous information. Those are also subtitles.
Easy enough to verify. Rip the disc, load the MKV into Subtitle Edit, and pick the track with the fewest elements.
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BTW:
With Always on enabled - the external Forced file is auto-selected. <-- even when there is a choice of Forced/Not Forced.
(Shhhhh… don’t tell anybody - it’s working as expected)
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A couple more questions haha. The screenshot below is for one movie and I always thought (before) the Subtitles PGS English (forced only) below the main Subtitles PGS English meant they were the Forced Subs. That’s what confused me before. What’s the point of having those there? And since there’s no other English subtitles on this disc, that means there’s no Forced Only track right?
Why in the Sam Hill do you have every single sub track engaged?
To see if you’re paying attention - I guess - They’re always empty and MakeMKV Always complains about it during the rip.
The ‘Real’ Forced track will simply be one of the other Folders (in your language) - the one with the fewest elements - and yes, it’ll have an empty Forced Folder too. It’s consistent - if nothing else.
Thanks, that clears that up. I did always wonder why there were multiple English tracks haha. Weird it works like that.
Okay, hopefully one final question haha. Do you guys know of any sites that list all the movies with English Forced Subtitles? I know IMDB does give you the languages used in the Details but it’s sometimes hard to base it off that. Wanna go through my movies now that I think I have a decent understanding of how they work!
Here’s a link to a spreadsheet that I found to be very helpful.
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