Fireside Follow-up: Metadata Agenda, NFO Support, and some of our future work on PMS

Hi everyone! We dropped some information in at the end of the Fireside chat right before that thread was closed, but it was some exciting stuff. The intent had always been to create some space for discussion, so we are reposting that information below and are ready to talk about it a little bit more here! Please remember that some of these targets are a bit more firmed up than others, but they represent some of the awesome work that we want to get completed between now and the end of next year. So let’s chat!

Note: the following post was made at the end of the fireside chat here. We have also posted a new blog post here with additional information that you might want to check out.

Let’s talk about metadata agents, audiobooks, and server in general! I have a feeling that this is going to be a popular post, so let’s dive in! First - we have already removed python on the Android-based Plex Media Server releases (yes, this means the shield), and thus, 3rd party agents on that platform. This same change will be occurring to all server builds but we are committed to making sure that solutions still exist for alternatives on all platforms in conjunction with the removal change.

Next - where does this leave everyone? We have put together a boarder plan that I am effectively introducing here. Now I know that this is coming at the end of the Fireside chat, but please know that we will be following up with a dedicated post to get feedback and comment within the next few weeks as we get closer to Pro Week. So what is this plan?!?

Effectively, we want to double down on Plex Media Server. We have always put effort in two places, server side and then on the client side to realize a full experience. The problem is that this is a slow process. To implement this we need many developers on multiple clients as well as our server gurus to all work together to crank out amazing features. This takes time. It is harder to be agile and react to things as they come up when we are working through these projects. Overall - we need a way to move a bit faster - and this is exactly what we have been brainstorming and working on.

There will be many pieces to this puzzle and it will take some time to get the full and clear picture out, but here are some of the pieces that we are excited to share with you today:

  • A public PMS Open API spec: this has been a long time coming. In order to help people build amazing things they need to know what is possible and how to access it. This work has already started!

  • NFO support: build out your own metadata! Having the ability to have local files with the specific metadata for titles that you want to see int he way you want to see it. This project is already kicked off with a target release next year.

  • Custom Agents! Metadata is crucial to making the experience the best it can be and while we are removing python and the existing third party access that exists now, we have started the working on what comes next. In a nutshell, developers will be able to implement metadata agents following the same API spec that we do for our own infrastructure, meaning 3rd party agents will be first class citizens in PMS and server owners will have the ability to build custom agents that are fined tuned however they see fit. This opens the door for projects in many languages, not just python, going forward. You will truly have complete control over your metadata. This effort has also started with a target release alongside NFO support next year.

  • Audiobooks? Ebooks? Other library types? This initiative will open the door to us adding support for these types of libraries and making sure that we have the appropriate metadata fields and library features that are needed for these entertainment types to be successful. This hasn’t started, but is part of this overall planning - but to be clear this would be server-side support and we may need community help to have amazing clients to be able to consume this media! We would much rather get to more things faster on the server side and work with all of the creative devs out there via a public PMS API to support creating their own dream experience for consuming this entertainment!

  • Photos and Music: This initiative will have an impact on these library types, but we plan on continuing support for both of these through dedicated apps (yes, I said apps here) and we will be talking through these impacts in pro week which starts on September 16!

  • Rebuilding the server management experience. This will be a major project that is firmly on the roadmap for next year (2025). This will replace the bundled web client, and provide a much more extensible platform for giving server owners a bespoke experience for managing, curating, and understanding their server that will not only be available through your browser, but also on your mobile devices. This work will be kicking off next year!

The fact is, we feel that we will be better off if we focus most of our efforts on the server side of things and also work to build out community support for anyone who wants to work on client or third party solutions against a PMS. Therefore there may be features that we work on that only appear on server and are just sitting there waiting for someone to come along and built out an amazing client experience. But instead of hobbling ourselves thinking that we must hold off on building this until the stars align and we can spin up a big project to handle both server work and client side work - we want to remove this boundary! Let the features flow!

As part of this initiative, we hope to find ways to build out, work with, and ultimately collaborate with you, the community on development initiatives. Having a thriving community of developers and users will only strengthen this amazing platform. While we don’t have details fully worked out, the goal would be to create dedicated communication channels for the dev community that allow Plex engineers and developers to work together for even better experiences. We would like to help create open source components that developers can use to quickly ramp up new projects for even faster bootstrapping of ideas into enjoyment.

Now, let’s chat! We are looking forward to hearing your feedback and working to make this effort the best it can be. You all are awesome and we look forward to continuing working together on the amazing Plex Media Server!

Thanks,
-Kevin

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I’ll start with a clarification question. Will the current plex desktop apps continue support playing of music media or will we be forced to move to plexamp ?

While I use plexamp on my mobile device, its rubbish (IMO) on the desktop and I’d like to continue using the plex desktop app for music. I get why you want to focus the iOS and Android apps but I see no mention of the desktop app.

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Also… these statements scare the bejesus out of me …

Our mission here at Plex is to create a global community where everyone can discover, experience, and share all of the entertainment that matters to them

and

This means that by early 2025, the Plex app will be entirely focused on the discovery of movies, shows, TV, and fellow fans

… but I’ll wait to see what this actually means before I jump on my high horse!

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With the custom types, will that library only be accessible through the Plex API, or is there a possibility of exposing something like an OPDS feed for books, or RSS for podcasts without needing a separate service outside of Plex?

I like the sound of these changes.

With these changes, is Plex moving away from the current pinning system? I personally hope so.

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From the Blog Post today:

  • Late Q4 / Early Q1: As we transition to dedicated companion apps, we will begin phasing out support for music and photos in the Plex mobile app for iOS and Android. We will provide ample notice and resources to help you transition to the new companion apps.
  • 2025: We are planning to expand device support for Plex Photos, while deprecating music and photos playback in the primary Plex (movies & shows) application. This means that by early 2025, the Plex app will be entirely focused on the discovery of movies, shows, TV, and fellow fans.

So what about music videos we have matched to music tracks? Are you going to introduce music video support to PlexAmp?

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What I’m optimistic of, especially with music, is what my (human) friends listen to. And telling my friends about a badass new song/band. This is a complete non-starter for plexamp and music until the database is fixed to allow multiple artists to work, but could be the catalyst of Keith and Jason allocating resources to overhaul the database so have a little optimism on this front. And again, something i’d help pay a bounty for.

Also agreed with your apprehension of how this may ruin the plex app, especially with how plex becoming a social media platform being the sole reason Jason became Chairman of the Board of Plex,Inc. As long as I can completely block whatever algorithm plex,inc wants to force into my app for recommendations, I’m good with this devil’s deal.

Edit: just thought of a big value-ad use case in plexamp once multiple artists are fixed - linking to the official youtube music video (song level) or artist YouTube page (artist level) from within plexamp. 100% useful at the gym when I’m not worried about flac audio quality.

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Everyone will have their own opinions here.

However, the reason I am responding here is that I want to point out that this isn’t some big new announcement or hidden agenda that is just now coming to light. We have been working on and had this mission statement up for years now on our main site and some (but not all) of the features that have been rolling out reflect areas of this mission that are not as focused on personal media users. I would also point out that while there have been assumptions and many posted fears to the contrary, we continue to view personal media as part of this mission - and if you look back over the years we have continued to grow and enhance the personal media product. It is different teams working in different areas with the goal of making our users happy and building something awesome.

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Great question! Initially via the API, but one reason to share visibility into our intent and some of the roadmap targets is to start getting feedback like this so that we can build thigns more collaboratively. An OPDS feed hasn’t been part of our discussions so far but seems to be at least worth some considerations and discussions. We aren’t going to commit to anything without doing our own research to understand how this could be implemented and the effort required - but these types of questions and ideas are exactly why we wanted to make these efforts a bit more public and invite feedback here.

So thank you @danielbrierton !!

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Assuming you are referring to the left nav pinning system - there are exciting things baking in the oven here so to speak. Sit tight on this one!

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As long as personal media remains well supported, and as long as we curmudgeons can opt out of all the social features, I think you will keep us happy.

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That sounds super exciting! Thanks for sharing some bits of info :slight_smile:

Important question.

The blog says:

As we transition to dedicated companion apps, we will begin phasing out support for music and photos in the Plex mobile app for iOS and Android.

This suggests that they will leave music features in the desktop and web apps. @McWanke can you confirm?

FWIW I agree it would be bad news for the desktop and web apps to lose all music support. I cannot imagine doing something fussy like creating a smart playlist with a bunch of criteria inside Plexamp.

I am willing to lose music and photo support in the current mobile apps, though…

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To be totally honest here - this is a bit vague for us at the moment. We have been more focused more on the mobile side of things. What I can tell you is that Desktop and web support will definitely stick around longer than it will on the mobile side of things. Does this mean it will ultimately go away? I don’t know but we are committed to keep everyone posted once we have more information and decisions here.

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Can I quote you on this? :grin: J/K.

We get it - and it has been a long, long time since we made any change that comes even close to making 100% of the user base happy. I will state that we work really, really hard to bend over backwards on new features to try and make them as configurable as we can. You may not always agree with the end result - but everything we do runs through a gauntlet of decisions and arguments for taking extra time for configuration.

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Thanks.

As feedback I would see this a major negative set backwards if this was removed from the web and desktop apps. It may even be the straw that broke the camel but lets see what way this shakes out as the team iterate.

Again, appreciate the honesty.

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I understand, I work in product too.

If you do eventually pull music from everything but Plexamp, IMHO it is very important for Plexamp to somehow or other give us the same kind of playlist building experience that we have on the desktop today.

This is one of my smart playlists, and it isn’t even that complex, but doing something like this with Plexamp’s current UI approach would be a real drag. I’d probably have to horizontally scroll through a hundred genres. :rofl: This kind of task is just a lot easier with a desktop style UI.

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I would chime in specifically around the “well supported” aspect.

It does feel like bug reports - particularly with client issues - seem to get less attention or engagement from reps after this change in mission a few years ago.

Assurances were made recently in the fireside when someone asked about increasing support resources that all topics get reviewed by Plex support. That means getting no response to an issue is a choice being made, not simply getting accidentally missed, and creates the perception of where resources and priority is being set by Plex.

As been said, the “mission” has been clear for a few years now. The front page of Plex presents the new business model including streaming and social services as a big part of Plex’s platform. I think that is a good path for a business in this environment actually. It’s not something I personally use but I see the benefit it provides to the business and many users. I hope the additional revenue that comes in from it will help support the local media management side of Plex even if as a smaller part of the customer base.

I also know working on maintenance issues don’t get nearly the visibility or attention from leadership compared to work going towards new revenue. It’s hard to get resources for it. Operations stuff isn’t as shiny compared to capital stuff when put on slide decks. :slight_smile:

So if local media support has become a smaller component of Plex’s business model - which seems reasonable to me - then I just want solid and reliable support for us legacy customers who were a foundation for Plex’s current position in the market. At the very least reduce issues being ignored.

In my personal opinion, based in part on some of my professional experience in this area and as a customer myself, positive support interactions can really set the tone for how customers\users feel towards a business or product. When everything works, people are happy. When it doesn’t, people want to feel like the company is listening in earnest even if they can’t fix the problem right now or exactly as they’d like.

I’m mostly very happy with Plex. I think all it’d take are small additional efforts in the forums and that’d help reverse what creates some of the concern - and scaring the bejesus outta Dokuro - around the future of Plex’s local media management functions.

Things like this fireside do help a lot and many Plex reps are very good, often going above and beyond. Particularly in the server support areas - ChuckPa being so active and helpful in a positive way is a big reason I have confidence in Plex server and is a good example of what I’m kinda talking about here.

I also very much appreciate the recent efforts to address long standing client issues while engaging with the community for testing and feedback - AppleTV beta, HDR tonemapping, subtitle transcoding, Android beta… to name a few. That was something I felt dropped off after the new business model was released so I’m happy to see that more often again.

Sorry for the long text… I appreciate the attention… that’s it for my Ted Talk. :slight_smile:

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The good thing potentially is some of those Plexamp features may finally find their way to big screens. Fingers crossed. music playback on Android TV is atrocious at the moment.

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If you’re doubling down on PMS, will we finally be getting local auth?

It’s a feature I would honestly pay extra for, I spent a considerable amount of time building and fine tuning my authentication solution and would really like to get my Plex deployment in the loop

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