Not a regular poster. Lifetime sub for quite a while. Just want to say there are people like myself that agree with these concerns but don’t usually have the time or inclination to jump into these kinds of discussions. I will be looking at alternatives for the first time since discovering plex. If people like me are doing that, I suggest plex should be worried that this will have a greater negative impact than expected. It may not be just a vocal few.
@elan said:
@ShadowBlade72 said:
I think if we were able to see what is being collected, it would help to assuage some of the fears.Agreed, and that is our intent.
I appreciate the responses, but I think you missed the entire first part of that paragraph.
Saying “Yes, we agree.” and then not actually providing any of the request information doesn’t move us forward with this issue.
Are you at least working on obtaining the log information to present to us?
@elan said:
@hexluther said:
No, I’m referring to the metadata. To know duration, you have to read OUR files. To know codec used, you have to examine OUR files. So on and so forth. Come on now.In order to make your media look beautiful and full of metadata, we need to read YOUR files. The posters, e.g. come from IMDB, TVDB, TheMovieDB, etc. Are you at all worried they are keeping per-IP logs of poster downloads? From a practical matter, if you want to live in a world where there is absolutely no data sent about your files to the cloud, you would use something like VLC. But again, we at Plex have zero desire to store any identifiable information about the files you’re playing or adding to your library.
PMS requesting posters and movie/tv/music metadata (as in the type they provide) is not admission to having said movie, TV shows, music on our systems, as is the metadata you want to CREATE using files on OUR systems.
From a “practical” stand point, I am just fine that Plex houses my server’s IP address, connection status, even my user credentials, as I have obviously demonstrated by agreeing to create an account, install PMS, and then going as far as paying for a lifetime subscription.
See in your opinion we (those of us whom are complaining) are over-reacting, if you hadn’t stated as such clearly and in those words, it’s more than evident in your responses. But, real back those thoughts of us being “conspiracy nuts” for a moment and deal the immediate clearly voiced concern of, YOU (Plex) generating metadata from OUR media. I could request posters and media “metadata” from those sites all day long without actually having the media. What Plex wants to do is directly generate/produce their own “metadata” using OUR files. I feel as though I’m talking in circles, when it just seems so abundantly clear to me the concern of and desire to keep our privacy.
How I “helped” Plex was in the form of $100+. The installation/MSI has the “opt-in” (aka “Send anonymous usage data to Plex” option) enabled by default. So, I suspect, too many have disabled this (something Plex at some point in time RESPECTED our privacy rights) so, you are now simply doing away with the option, thus our rights. All the while presenting themselves as proponents, or “just like you”. No sir, I believe you’ve lost touch of what it is to be “like” us, perhaps not ALL of us (I’ll agree to that), but, clearly a LARGE majority.
@elan said:
@hexluther said:
Just out of curiosity sakes, would you mind telling us precisely what such data is used for? x.264 is x.264, HVEC is HVEC, MP3 is MP3. How does creating metadata from what is being streamed (of ANY type) helpful in improving services when standards already existIt’s extraordinarily useful to know the codec mix, e.g. to understand when media will be transcoded vs not on particular platforms. Some platforms (e.g. Roku) are adept at direct playing lots of different codecs, whereas others (Smart TVs) are not. An example I think I gave earlier is around the number of users which are using image-based subtitles on Smart TVs. If there were a substantial number of users doing that, in combination with servers which aren’t powerful, that would be a very bad experience and we’d be smart to look into ways to resolve that issue.
Yes, that is the only clear example you give. Sub-Titles, which, I’m not a fan of foreign language films (it just isn’t my preference, NOT suggesting it shouldn’t be anyone’s by the way). So that example again, provides nearly nothing into our inquiry as to WHAT data is sent. Clearly it’s coded and I would think the CTO has access to the source code (and knows how to code), so tell us right here and now, what data IS sent. Not that telling us will have anything to do with protecting our privacy, but, I know a few (as evident by their posts) would be satisfied if not completely thrilled to see it.
Is it some sort of proprietary information?
I digress though. Because again, it simply feels as though this conversation is going in circles and the proverbial dead horse is beyond beaten… we’re now beating the pulp left behind from its beating.
I’ll only watch from here on out and HOPE, that the option to opt-out returns and that it actually “does something” (that perhaps was your most ignorant comment by the way – to even suggest a scenario where Plex -could- simply “says it does something”, like WOW).
@Elijah_Baley said:
Plex has also given and continues to give us the right to “opt out” in that we can choose to run (opt in) or not run (opt out) the Plex software.
That’s not how it works in law.
Btw. I personally know the data protection commissioner for my state through my university. If not at least an option for opt-out is offered in the new Privacy Policy once it kicks in I’ll schedule an appointment with him and discuss which and to what extend GDPR and subsequently DSGVO clauses are being violated.
This does it for me. Cancelling plex pass and moving to an application where I control my data.
Plex has NO right to force me to provide them with the ability to monitor my personal activity.
This is a really stupid and offensive move Plex.
@elan said:
@janngobble said:
You need to understand @elan, we don’t believe Plex. We can’t afford to.Just to be pedantic, trust is a big part of this. If we’re not trustworthy, we could give you an opt-out toggle which did nothing except make you feel better. We are not that company. We’re the same group of media loving fanatics (and users!) we were 10 years ago. The reason why I’m in here commenting over and over again is that I care about the way you feel, and we’re reading and listening to what you’re saying.
I actually trust you
But, plex has been hacked before. There’s no guarantee I’m the future. Nefarious people can take that data, plus the ip, and other data for cloud service you collect and use it for ill deeds.
This is why I want to opt out. I do not want so much data that could potentially be identifiable on cloud servers. I don’t trust them, and plexes own history has had breaches.
It’s a serious concern
@Elijah_Baley said:
As my brain process this more and more I am increasingly aware that many/most that are complaining about this, myself included, are missing something. The agreements we agreed to basically say that by using the software we agree to the privacy statement and some other agreements that include Plex’s right to change those in the future. So we have pre-agreed to whatever changes that Plex may choose to make.Plex has also given and continues to give us the right to “opt out” in that we can choose to run (opt in) or not run (opt out) the Plex software.
Plex is important to many of us BUT it is not esential and no one is in any way forced to run it.
Since we are not forced and we have the option to run something else or run nothing it seems that Plex is in compliance with any and all laws and rules of the industry.
Many people on here are choosing to (or at least saying they are choosing to) “opt out” by ceasing to run Plex. That is their right and no one should question that.
However, as far as “refunds” go I do not think that anybody is entitled to one although Plex may choose to honor some. The agreements were in place for some time, pretty much well before most of us started using Plex, and those agreements (like pretty much every agreement that exists for software) included the clause that allows Plex to change it as they see fit or as needed for their business. Since the agreements were in place when everyone signed up and since we agree to them whenever we run Plex and since we did NOT pay for Plex but for access to Plex Pass features and since using Plex is a choice I do not see any justification for refunds. I see this as a clear case of “caveat emptor.”
@Elijah_Baley I believe you are correct in your statement and this is why many of us are still posting in this forum and try to convince Plex to let the “opt-out” stay instead of just silently dissapear and uninstall Plex. I personally installed Emby already on my NAS, and evaluate the software. So far it’s working for me on all aspects. I am waiting for an answer from Plex. In case of a negative answer (take away the opt-out) then I will uninstall and buy Emby’s lifetime subscription.
This is getting ridiculous and all @elan is doing here is trying to waylay arguments why the data collecting thing isn’t bad. For me that’s not even the point here. It’s the arrogance in which we, the paying customers, are set aside as being ignorant or out of place.
Nothing has been done to answer the questions I see here over and over apart from silly jokes and circumspect answers about reviewing the stance of Plex in this (meaning it won’t change after this blows over).
I don’t have anything to hide so it’s not about my data at all for me, just the fact that my rights are being violated by a company a paid good money to and it’s being joked about or even insults shared instead of a mea culpa.
And yes Plex seriously needs a community manager and people in these forums. The quality of the responses is nigh on par as that of the state PMP and PFK are in.
I’m seriously reconsidering wether or not to renew my lifetime Plex pass once it’s due… Oh wait can’t vote with my wallet either.
The only way I’ll feel comfortable using Plex in the future is if you do something very similar to the following. Revert the changes or not you’ve lost my trust so I feel we all are entitled to this information now:
-
Flag all of your employees or other volunteers in the communities Plex accounts. And make a plex.tv/analyticslogs sort of address where we see EXACTLY the same data gathering that you do for the rest of us. This should be updated in if not real time at least weekly. If your data gathering is truly anonymous and nothing to fear then this should be something you’re all OK with. If it isn’t then obviously you aren’t confident enough in your own gathering. Add to your privacy policy a guarantee that this IS all you log.
-
Don’t get me wrong I have zero issue with you knowing codec and device I am playing on and DirectStream/DirectPlay/transcode I can see how that is invaluable to you. I just want in your privacy policy it to be explicitly clear that NO user identifiable information is kept or tied to this information. ZERO. That should be explicitly stated in your privacy policies. I’d call for a new category in your privacy policy under the heading of “Personal Media”. You should break the privacy policy into other third party clients and streaming services and personal libraries to prevent confusion and this problem from reoccurring in the future.
-
In the future before making massive changes to privacy policies or core functionality changes post your ideas in this forum to be discussed by your members.
@Elijah_Baley said:
As my brain process this more and more I am increasingly aware that many/most that are complaining about this, myself included, are missing something. The agreements we agreed to basically say that by using the software we agree to the privacy statement and some other agreements that include Plex’s right to change those in the future. So we have pre-agreed to whatever changes that Plex may choose to make.Plex has also given and continues to give us the right to “opt out” in that we can choose to run (opt in) or not run (opt out) the Plex software.
Plex is important to many of us BUT it is not esential and no one is in any way forced to run it.
Since we are not forced and we have the option to run something else or run nothing it seems that Plex is in compliance with any and all laws and rules of the industry.
Many people on here are choosing to (or at least saying they are choosing to) “opt out” by ceasing to run Plex. That is their right and no one should question that.
However, as far as “refunds” go I do not think that anybody is entitled to one although Plex may choose to honor some. The agreements were in place for some time, pretty much well before most of us started using Plex, and those agreements (like pretty much every agreement that exists for software) included the clause that allows Plex to change it as they see fit or as needed for their business. Since the agreements were in place when everyone signed up and since we agree to them whenever we run Plex and since we did NOT pay for Plex but for access to Plex Pass features and since using Plex is a choice I do not see any justification for refunds. I see this as a clear case of “caveat emptor.”
I don’t entirely agree with you here. Yes of course Plex states they can alter their terms as they see fit, that doesn’t mean they just can though. That goes against EU law for protecting is consumers and citizens. This supersedes corporate terms and conditions.
I don’t know that any of this truly bothers me at all, but I am disturbed by the argument that what will be gathered is basically inconsequential. If that’s the case, then opting out shouldn’t be an issue. There has to be a “why” for denying the opt-out and the arguments offered to this point are not very compelling.
I will also say that, in true internet fashion, the need for immediate gratification and over-the-top responses makes my teenage son seem like a study in patience and measured actions. It’s only been a day, let the fine folks at Plex work through this.
@“Frank R.” said:
The only way I’ll feel comfortable using Plex in the future is if you do something very similar to the following. Revert the changes or not you’ve lost my trust so I feel we all are entitled to this information now:
Flag all of your employees or other volunteers in the communities Plex accounts. And make a plex.tv/analyticslogs sort of address where we see EXACTLY the same data gathering that you do for the rest of us. This should be updated in if not real time at least weekly. If your data gathering is truly anonymous and nothing to fear then this should be something you’re all OK with. If it isn’t then obviously you aren’t confident enough in your own gathering. Add to your privacy policy a guarantee that this IS all you log.
Don’t get me wrong I have zero issue with you knowing codec and device I am playing on and DirectStream/DirectPlay/transcode I can see how that is invaluable to you. I just want in your privacy policy it to be explicitly clear that NO user identifiable information is kept or tied to this information. ZERO. That should be explicitly stated in your privacy policies. I’d call for a new category in your privacy policy under the heading of “Personal Media”. You should break the privacy policy into other third party clients and streaming services and personal libraries to prevent confusion and this problem from reoccurring in the future.
In the future before making massive changes to privacy policies or core functionality changes post your ideas in this forum to be discussed by your members.
I look forward to seeing this change made as well. I have already canceled my yearly sub, will only reinstate it if this information is provided.
@“Frank R.” said:
- Flag all of your employees or other volunteers in the communities Plex accounts. And make a plex.tv/analyticslogs sort of address where we see EXACTLY the same data gathering that you do for the rest of us. This should be updated in if not real time at least weekly. If your data gathering is truly anonymous and nothing to fear then this should be something you’re all OK with. If it isn’t then obviously you aren’t confident enough in your own gathering. Add to your privacy policy a guarantee that this IS all you log.
You do realize that the data they’re collecting isn’t actually in any way anonymous, right?
@mdnitoil said:
I don’t know that any of this truly bothers me at all, but I am disturbed by the argument that what will be gathered is basically inconsequential. If that’s the case, then opting out shouldn’t be an issue. There has to be a “why” for denying the opt-out and the arguments offered to this point are not very compelling.
Nicely said. But even if the reasons offered were compelling, paying customers still need a opt-out.
@mdnitoil said:
I will also say that, in true internet fashion, the need for immediate gratification and over-the-top responses makes my teenage son seem like a study in patience and measured actions. It’s only been a day, let the fine folks at Plex work through this.
If this didn’t/doesn’t happen, nothing would change. Unfortunately outrage is required. Why do you think they introduced such a change on Friday afternoon? They hoped it would blow over by Monday. It’s a typical move by companies who want to brush something under the carpet.
Fortunately the Plex community is not dumb and recognized it for what it is.
@stefanvanruiten said:
You do realize that the data they’re collecting isn’t actually in any way anonymous, right?
Elan seems to claim that is not the case though his message has been incredibly garbled. So lets see if he can prove that or not.
@“Frank R.” said:
Elan seems to claim that is not the case. So lets see if he can prove that.
Doesn’t matter what he says. The Privacy Policy counts.
As said before:
Nowhere in the “Usage Statistics for Personal Content”, “Device Information” and “Application Information” section any anonymization is mentioned.
Usage Statistics for Personal Content. We may collect usage statistics for Personal Content. This includes information about your interaction with the Services, such as device information, duration, bit rate, media formats, resolution, and media type (music, photos, videos, etc.). Usage statistics do not include specific content titles or filenames. We may use information related to your usage to run and improve our Services, to provide, customize, and personalize communications and other content that we deliver or offer to you.
Device Information. Like many online services, we may collect information about the devices that are used to access our Services, such as the IP address of the device, the operating system and version of the device, the browser that you use to access a Plex web page, and the versions of the Plex technologies being used. We may also collect location information about the devices that access our Services.
Application Information. When a request for information or content is sent to a Plex Media Server, we may collect an application identifier that identifies which application sent the request. An application identifier uniquely identifies a particular copy of an application. For example, if you download an application from Plex, fully uninstall the copy of the application, and then re-download the application from Plex, the new copy of the application will be associated with a different application identifier than the uninstalled copy of the application. Note that simply deleting the app without fully uninstalling may not reset the application identifier.
As such you can assume this data is tied to your account.
This is easy for you to say, but we measure the quality of this in two ways: (1) number of stalls per X minutes and (2) overall average quality of the stream. Both of these metrics show substantial improvement for streams under ABR on LAN and WAN scenarios.
I would be interested to see realistic percentages of the streams that are actually using it… everyone here on the boards has to turn it off…
and as for stalls…auto quality causes the stalls when trying to play full bitrate on systems that use to play them just fine before…
so lets say 10% of you install base was having streaming issues… you now force 100% of your installs to transcode to lower quality when there is no need to… that decreases stalls and you consider that an improvement… so in racing speak… your car cant keep up with the pack… so you make everyone else race slower… nice work…
all you are doing is catering to the weakest links and forcing othewise powerful and well functioning installs to use lesser bit rates and formats to hide the fact you teams cant make it work properly in the first place.
@“Frank R.” said:
@stefanvanruiten said:
You do realize that the data they’re collecting isn’t actually in any way anonymous, right?Elan seems to claim that is not the case though his message has been incredibly garbled. So lets see if he can prove that or not.
^^^ this. Was just about to find that quote as well. How can Plex send me an notification about my server being out of date (which it will be soon) when they don’t know who I am?
@elan said:
Don’t bullshit us by saying that every concern we’ve raised is nothing more than FUD.
Not my intent.
Your words on reddit:
[–]ElanFeingold [-3] Plex CTO 2 points 19 hours ago
This is pure FUD, and we’re not going to do that.
@elan said:
@ShadowBlade72 said:
I think if we were able to see what is being collected, it would help to assuage some of the fears.Agreed, and that is our intent.
You could show us some of the collected data and the statistics you generate out of it.
