Plex, show your customers some respect

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161

@ChuckPA So, I guess you’re right, there is some level of “miscommunication or misunderstanding about the desktop environment versus the Windows Phone environment” - as far as the UWP app is concerned, both the desktop and Windows Phone environment are identical. The application works on both, as well as other devices.

And that is precisely what led me to say “Would it be right to say that no-one at Plex knows much about the UWP application”.

Because, if they did, they would know that the future (or lack of) for Windows Phone is irrelevant.

Not a dig at you, by the way. I’m aware that Windows is not your speciality. You have been helpful in your posts here, nevertheless.

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Matt,
The different facets of what UWP is, is where I think the misunderstanding was. I don’t think everyone was on the same page. I think they have sorted it out.

IMHO, your statement: “In short, if Plex intends to abandon the UWP application, then it is also abandoning the Windows 10 platform, on all devices.” isn’t a fair statement. I read that as saying “Plex is abandoning the Windows 10 platform in its entirety.” I assert, in that context, your statement is incorrect. Why would Plex abandon PMS or PMP on a Windows computer? That doesn’t make any sense given how many use PMS on Windows.

You’re correct, PMP doesn’t sync. It’s a player-only. I see where folks will use PMP, on Windows, in a NUC computer, as the box connected to the TV. PMP is intended as a “player only” app.

I understand “UWP” to be the Windows equivalent of the iOS app? Is this correct?
To help me understand better, the Windows App Store is only applicable to the tablet environment just as Apple’s App Store is to iOS ?

On that personal note, thanks. It’s been a long three weeks only made uncomfortable when I forget the temporary limitations (e.g. do not lift or push with more than one pound with the arm). Three weeks down, nine more to go riiiiiight :slight_smile:

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@ChuckPa

“I understand “UWP” to be the Windows equivalent of the iOS app? Is this correct?
To help me understand better, the Windows App Store is only applicable to the tablet environment just as Apple’s App Store is to iOS ?”

No, and that is the very source of Plex’s misunderstanding of what UWP applications are.

Apple has iOS and their desktop operating system - two different things.

Microsoft has one operating system - Windows 10.

As I said in my message, I have the Plex UWP application running on my Windows 10 Desktop PC. I could also install it on a Windows 10 laptop, a tablet, etc.

The Microsoft Store covers all versions of Windows 10, regardless of device.

If you go to the Plex app on the Microsoft store, you see this:

s8t3epw8br2t.png933×560 28.5 KB

If Plex abandons the UWP application, then, as I say, they will be abandoning the Windows 10 Platform. The existing PMP application will not run, and it will not be possible to install it, on “Windows 10 S” devices (laptops etc.), and those devices will only run UWP applications downloaded from the Microsoft store.

Plex could, of course, continue only with PMP, but it would make more sense to continue with the UWP application. Windows 10 S users would not be able to use PMP at all.

It isn’t clear to me why the UWP application wasn’t written properly so that it would also work on XBox.

Here is a list of the types of devices that support UWP applications - it’s a lot more than mobile.

docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/design/devices/

I hope that helps.

Matt.

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For reference, this is a description of Windows 10 S. Again, it will only run UWP applications downloaded from the Microsoft store:

theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/03/windows-10-s-microsoft-faster-pc-comparison

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Quite a few people seem to be under the impression that the UWP app is being rebuilt for PC and XBOX, and is in closed beta.

I’m still digging for evidence for that though, I’ve not found anything concrete yet.

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As long as the new version entails a kind of Sync ability then I am not worried as to how the app is being rebuild. Personally that is the most used feature that I use on my win 10 devices and I am surprised there isn’t an equivalent for OS-X. It seems that only mobile (as in phones/tablets and not laptops/notebooks) have this support at the minute.

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@ChuckPA Thanks for the, I guess, great news. At least we now finally know after 1 year that someone has picked this up somewhere. Where it will lead is of course a completely different issue.

I do agree though with @foxprorawks that it seems that there are very few or no people at Plex who understand the concept of UWP as otherwise this wouldn’t have been a problem. But in any case I’m happy with this development.

@ChuckPA I do hope that you’ll be back full hands on soon :wink: - Thanks for all your help!

168

Matt,
Please don’t equate my level of understanding with theirs. I’m not a Windows user (not in 20 years at least).

To boil this down as simple as possible, please help me create a correct equivalence:

A. Apple

  1. All devices use the A-series processors in their mobile / tablet devices
  2. Uses the same A-series processors in their Apple TV product
  3. tvOS and iOS are highly akin to each other
  4. MacOS is Unix-based and uses X86 processors
  5. Packaging for the Apple App Store covers all A-series platforms (iOS and tvOS sides)
  6. Packaging for the Mac App Store covers all the X86 platforms (MacOS)

B. Microsoft
1 All devices use the X86 processors whether it be desktop or M-series
2 Windows 10, in all its variants, provides the same API regardless of physical platform
3. Windows 10, desktop / server environment also provides the traditional “Setup application” seen in all previous Windows versions

Using this as my foundation,

A. “UWP” is “Unified Windows Platform” or “Unified Windows Products” (emphasis on “Unified” because processor support is Intel and API is Win 10)
B. If PMP were packaged for the Windows app store (UWP) one binary package would operate on any Windows 10 platform (desktop, server, tablet, or mobile) because all are WIn 10 + X86 devices
C. PMS, being a server platform product, can remain as it is because tablets and mobile do not have the I/O connectivity nor do they possess the CPU power to run an effective PMS system (transcoding, et al)

Yes?

169

@eBellmer said:
Quite a few people seem to be under the impression that the UWP app is being rebuilt for PC and XBOX, and is in closed beta.

I’m still digging for evidence for that though, I’ve not found anything concrete yet.

If they can write a working UWP app for PC and XBox, they can write it for all Windows 10 devices.

170

@foxprorawks said:

@eBellmer said:
Quite a few people seem to be under the impression that the UWP app is being rebuilt for PC and XBOX, and is in closed beta.

I’m still digging for evidence for that though, I’ve not found anything concrete yet.

If they can write a working UWP app for PC and XBox, they can write it for all Windows 10 devices.

I’m aware of the implications, but I’m sceptical about its existence in the first place.
I’m going to collate the claims and the evidence when I get the chance.

171

@ChuckPA said:
Matt,
Please don’t equate my level of understanding with theirs. I’m not a Windows user (not in 20 years at least).

To boil this down as simple as possible, please help me create a correct equivalence:

A. Apple

  1. All devices use the A-series processors in their mobile / tablet devices
  2. Uses the same A-series processors in their Apple TV product
  3. tvOS and iOS are highly akin to each other
  4. MacOS is Unix-based and uses X86 processors
  5. Packaging for the Apple App Store covers all A-series platforms (iOS and tvOS sides)
  6. Packaging for the Mac App Store covers all the X86 platforms (MacOS)

B. Microsoft
1 All devices use the X86 processors whether it be desktop or M-series
2 Windows 10, in all its variants, provides the same API regardless of physical platform
3. Windows 10, desktop / server environment also provides the traditional “Setup application” seen in all previous Windows versions

Using this as my foundation,

A. “UWP” is “Unified Windows Platform” or “Unified Windows Products” (emphasis on “Unified” because processor support is Intel and API is Win 10)
B. If PMP were packaged for the Windows app store (UWP) one binary package would operate on any Windows 10 platform (desktop, server, tablet, or mobile) because all are WIn 10 + X86 devices
C. PMS, being a server platform product, can remain as it is because tablets and mobile do not have the I/O connectivity nor do they possess the CPU power to run an effective PMS system (transcoding, et al)

Yes?

Whilst I hear what you’re saying, I’d expect your Windows developers to know this stuff.

  1. Not all Windows 10 devices use X86 processors, although that isn’t really relevant.

  2. My understanding is that there is a common API surface across all devices. However, there can be additional APIs for device-specific features. The developer can check at runtime if those particular features are available. If you only target the universal APIs, your app package can run on all devices that run Windows 10.

  3. Windows 10 Home / Server / Professional etc. provide the Win32 setup application functionality you refer to. However, Windows 10 S, found on Surface Laptop and likely the new “Always Connected” Windows devices will only allow you to install UWP applications from the Microsoft Store.

A. Yes, it’s a unified platform. However, it’s not processor dependent, as far as I understand.

B. I’m not aware of the technicalities of taking a Win32 application and converting it into a UWP application.

C. PMS should certainly stay as it is - I don’t see any problem with it remaining as a non-UWP application.

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@ChuckPA said:
A. “UWP” is “Unified Windows Platform” or “Unified Windows Products” (emphasis on “Unified” because processor support is Intel and API is Win 10)
B. If PMP were packaged for the Windows app store (UWP) one binary package would operate on any Windows 10 platform (desktop, server, tablet, or mobile) because all are WIn 10 + X86 devices
C. PMS, being a server platform product, can remain as it is because tablets and mobile do not have the I/O connectivity nor do they possess the CPU power to run an effective PMS system (transcoding, et al)

Yes?

BOOM!

I profess to be no expert in the finer details, but as an overview/understanding, I think you’ve nailed it.

Being the non-expert I am, almost all of my Windows 10 devices are proper Desktop PCs. I prefer running UWP versions of software whenever possible because they seem to be lighter and more agile than traditional standard installs. Kodi just recently released their UWP and I converted it over from standard. I love that it auto updates without intervention. Also, when I get an app from the Windows Store, it ties to my account across devices, where standard installs require a more manual process.

As a result, I started off using Plex in this way on my PCs, but soon realized this version was being outpaced by other Plex options. I really would like to run it on my Surface though… it seems an ideal application for it away from standards desktops.

Long story short, from a PC user perspective I can run both… but prefer Windows Store versions because of the advantages whenever possible.

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Let’s not digress into the technical. That’s not my purpose here. Where and what happens to this environment is in management’s hands now. I am certain they have the development team involved who know this infinitely better than I do.

I will say, as a developer myself, processor, OS, API, and composite operational platform are indeed highly relevant. It’s a common misunderstanding by countless people these days, including developers themselves; they forget the hardware. They think “Oh, get more memory” or “Get a faster processor” or “Plug in another adapter card”. Those resources are not infinite. Also “You made it work on A so why not B?” It’s not universal. There are techniques I can use and optimizations I can employ on one processor which I can’t on another. There are some things you just can’t do on a given environment. To pick an extreme, for as much CPU power as exists in our automobiles, can I run PMS or PMP in my car and seamlessly integrate it? Not likely.

Regarding Windows: If the CPUs are not the same then the same binary can’t be used across distributions. It is VERY well known by anyone who’s tried to use PMS on a NAS, what may work for an X86_64 box, isn’t guaranteed on an X86, and most definitely has zero guarantee for an ARM processor yet everyone expects that to ‘magically’ happen. It just doesn’t and never has. EVERY unique condition must be accounted for . It’s called “conditional compilation”. PMS, as well as every app, has conditionals for processor. It has conditionals for OS (e.g. Linux, MacOS, iOS, Windows variants). It has conditionals for Vendor (Synology / QNAP ). It even has conditionals for different models.

See how complex it’s getting. The permutations are staggering. I’ve been doing this for over 30 years and even with all the sophisticated tools we now have, it’s still getting harder to do.

Part of my job is packaging for NAS systems. That means I take the Linux binaries and make certain they all have a viable operational environment on the host. I write the tools which build those installation files as well as control PMS when on the NAS. It’s not always easy. In some cases the answer has been “No, it can’t be done”.

One of my personal friends has been developing exclusively on Windows for 25+ years and is still cursing it because of its complexity. It didn’t get easier with their .NET framework. It got more complex because they still kept all the backward compatibility. It never gets easier. While it sounds nice “Unified” or everything “Windows 10”, when you dig into it, it’s not so nice after all. (He’s constantly swearing at the complexity of Windows 10)

Please don’t take what I’ve just shared as any indication of what management may ultimately decide. My purpose for sharing this is to shine some light on how difficult this stuff is.

With this, again, I hope I’ve helped inform about how difficult some of this is. I greatly appreciate you taking the time to educate me. In the longer term, this knowledge will help me provide better support.

I will again step back and await any information I can pass forward.

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@ChuckPA said:
Please don’t take what I’ve just shared as any indication of what management may ultimately decide. My purpose for sharing this is to shine some light on how difficult this stuff is.

You’re a Wizard in my book, sir. I see you routinely address issues with a calm and grace I would not be able to provide in heated threads. You’ve also stepped across the lines on several occasions and offered a hand in areas in which you profess to be less skilled.

I think many of us understand the complexities involved. The true constant is that all of your efforts are appreciated.

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Thanks, I do what I can. I’ve spent my life creating and doing things deemed “impossible”.

To me, as I see the world, “The impossible is doable, it just takes a little longer”

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From what I understand the process for building a UWP app is fairly easy as for the first time Win 10 has a common core across all platforms (phone, desktop, laptop, xbox etc). There are additional SDKs for specific sub platforms, but these are easy to test for in the app. (See msdn.microsoft.com/en-gb/library/dn975273.aspx for more info)

I like doing the impossible :smile: - kind of in my job too haha

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@chaosmaker

Why don’t you drop Plex a note via their contact page? They might just give you the shot. :slight_smile:

PS: The impossible is fun, isn’t it? There is nothing better than that Eureka moment at 3:30 am when you solve it with the pizza boxes and water/pop bottles overflowing the trash can, is there?

178

With regard to processors, this might explain how they are handled when writing a UWP application.

docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/packaging/device-architecture

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@ChuckPA said:
@chaosmaker

Why don’t you drop Plex a note via their contact page? They might just give you the shot. :slight_smile:

PS: The impossible is fun, isn’t it? There is nothing better than that Eureka moment at 3:30 am when you solve it with the pizza boxes and water/pop bottles overflowing the trash can, is there?

Haha I wish I had the time. I’m a computational biologist so my architecture that I’m trying decode is a bit more complex than the UWP SDK :scream:

Anyway things seem to go there right way let’s hope.

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That’s an interesting web page. It’s not clear how they expect an ARM-based product to be ‘configured’ to run on an X86 -based product because in all my years that little piece of magic is only handled by a CPU emulator package but maybe that’s one of the benefits of marketing? :slight_smile:

They did forget one thing. They forgot the kitchen sink :smiley:

Every possible complexity I inferred across all of Linux and all its variants, which includes desktops, servers, all NAS vendors and their individual products, as well as the embedded platforms (routers, etc) totals 15.

Microsoft has effortlessly scooped up 13 different binary packages into the “UWP” label.

This brings us to the fundamental question:

Do you want it all? What can you live without?