Hi, been muxing since 2003/2004, more precisely, since the introduction of AnyDVD. There are many excellent PLEX discussions regarding dealing with VC-1 [single thread processor lag]: As I’ve read/learned from our community [confused on some of the technical vernacular], the default treatise for transcoding issues related to VC-1 [Single thread-Blue Ray 1920x1080] is to mux into something that uses multiple process threads/cores, like H264. However, I would like to run native VC-1 w/o [spooling/lag/buffering] issues, so my question is very simple, has anyone put a PLEX PC-Server rig together that will handle VC-1 [I’m hoping that this info may also help my future server 4K hurdles]? If so, could you please provide a breakdown or, at minimum, identify the minimum core requirements/Intel product number/etc.?
I think you are confusing the terms.
You cannot remux VC-1 into H.264. That process is called transcoding and
- requires a significant amout of cpu power when it is done on the Plex server and
- reduces picture quality and
- leads to lags when you are trying to skip forward and back during playback.
The amount of cpu power to perform 1) has been determined to
at least ~4000 passmark points for the whole cpu
and (crucially) at least ~1350 points for one cpu core alone. (this parameter is called ‘single thread rating’ on https://www.cpubenchmark.net/ when you look up your cpu model there)
However, when you are after a lag-free playback experience (and the best visual quality in your home cinema), you don’t want transcoding to happen on your server at all.
Instead you need to use a client device and a client software which allows you to play back VC-1 encoded video directly (which is called around here ‘Direct Play’).
https://support.plex.tv/articles/201566396-how-are-direct-play-direct-stream-and-transcoding-different/
And that is only possible on very few Plex clients.
The best chance is to use a HTPC device with Plex Media Player installed. It will Direct Play VC-1 video and if you are relying on subtitles, it will also Direct Play those PGS or VOBSUB subtitles which originate from DVD or BluRay disks.
Hi Otto, wow, thx for taking the time to explain and thx for all of the information. I will explain further and of course, invite your corrections, please, and thx in advance.
Yes probably my words were incorrect but what I’ve been doing, to deal with VC-1, is remuxing the movie into a MKV-H264 container so that I get a proper playback [sorry not transcoding]. Now, I’m just trying to determine if anyone has an HTPC out there that successfully plays MKV [VC-1 Blue Rays] and if so, share their hardware information. I’m setting up a new server and trying to determine my hardware requirements. Yes, I currently have direct play [DAS] server [Alien Hardware] but vintage Intel inside.
@LamboTesla said:
Yes probably my words were incorrect but what I’ve been doing, to deal with VC-1, is remuxing the movie into a MKV-H264 container so that I get a proper playback [sorry not transcoding].
I have been telling you that this is not possible.
Either you have been muxing it into an MKV container, thereby keeping the VC-1 codec for the video stream intact
or
you have been transcoding it from VC-1 video to H.264 video.
Which you actually did, is easy to find out: take a look at the Plex XML info. See what it says for the video codec. If it says ‘H.264’, you have been transcoding it.
Now, I’m just trying to determine if anyone has an HTPC out there that successfully plays MKV [VC-1 Blue Rays] and if so, share their hardware information. I’m setting up a new server and trying to determine my hardware requirements. Yes, I currently have direct play [DAS] server [Alien Hardware] but vintage Intel inside.
You are intermixing server and client.
Plex can have server and client on different devices. This is an important distinction.
If you are ever only be using Plex on one single screen, you can of course have both client and server in one device. But this would not use Plex’s full abilities - and with today’s prevalence of mobile devices one should take into account the possibility to access one’s Plex server from remote and with mobile devices.
This important because:
if you want the ability to use remote and/or mobile devices you will need a stronger cpu, which is able to transcode.
Whereas if you only want to use Plex on one device, with one screen, you will not need a very strong cpu, because in this case the graphics hardware will do the majority of the work.
Otto, Yup, OK, transcoding, got it and thx for the corrections and yes I have a dedicated direct play theater with Plex [one client/one server] on one screen and trying to configure a new system [dedicated]. With my current system, MKV VC-1 1920 x 1080 does present lag issues. Most of the user community comments seem to focus on the base core’s ability to process the single threaded VC-1 media. In other words, it’s not how many cores but the individual core capability. So I guess I was incorrectly focused on Intel’s capability when I should be focused on the graphics card. Your insight has helped me to move forward with my equipment needs. I’m assuming your guidance should apply to future 4K requirements.
@LamboTesla said:
I’m assuming your guidance should apply to future 4K requirements.
No. 4K presents a much, much higher load on both cpu and graphics hardware.
You’ll need a very recent cpu from the higher middle class for that. I cannot give you a ‘number’ requirement though, like I did above for VC-1.
Otto, you’ve certainly pointed me in the correct direction. OK, I’ll need to do some research for future 4K server needs. I’ll start my research in the gaming/graphics design [CAD] blogs to see how they’re processing [PC] 3D solid models. Someday, when I have everything together and working as it should, I’ll revisit you and let you know my hardware setup. Until then, thx soooo much.
@LamboTesla
otto is helping you out… but lets simplify this a bit…
assuming you want to keep VC-1 in its godawful container because you want the highest quality… then otto is right in telling you to look at your client so that it can play it nativly … that being said… its generally not practical … sure you cant host VC-1 and direct play with a server that has the power of a 1980s HP calculator … but at some point a client is going to want to play that file that cant play it directly… IE the server is going to have to transcode.
here is where I disagree with Otto… respectfully of course as he is very knowledgeable and has helped me many times…
the 4k passmark for the chip is… well… useless info and wont matter… it ONLY THE SINGLE CORE PASSMARK and for 1080 blu ray… I have an l5640 server where plex is in a VM (more overhead) and it can keep up with VC-1 and I consider it on the bubble… as you will see it occaisionally drop to .9… but since plex buffers. I have never had a stutter… I also have a backup server running a e8400… it works as well… again …a single transcode… single user
the l5640 is 1100 and the e8400 is 1251 passmark… so 1350 is a bit more margin and of course will work. but you can get by with less…
I would not bother with 4k until plex and hardware catch up with it… storage requirements and server horsepower will come to bite you… but its your dime if you want to blow the cost of a modest new car on your server… that is your business… hehe
have fun’
Hi Dragonmel, ah yes, the equipment! Now, that’s what I was looking for but I didn’t state my needs correctly to Otto. Thx for the added clarity. Our theater investment is quite heavy sporting 140" screen/Sony VPL-VW1100ES projector. Per your recommendation, we’ll wait for more 4K maturation. On the other hand, I’ve noticed that you focused on the CPU, not the graphics hardware. I started off researching the intel core i7 69xx/68xx processor only because that’s what all of the blogs regarding processing native VC-1 [single thread] were focused on [albeit, single core speed for single thread]. So now I’m somewhat confused because you didn’t mention the graphics hardware? It’s kind of obvious that I’m a novice at this stuff but a quick study, so please, as Otto was so kind to do, provide any corrections in my dialog here that will help my clarity.
Okay, so my question sort of goes along with this. My current specs - 1gig download and 40mbps upload.
PC - i7-8700k OC to 5.0ghz, 16 gigs DDR4 3000 ram, ASrock z370 Extreme mobo, Nvidia 1080ti GPU, custom water cooled loop.
Playback - Nvidia Shield 4k on the same network as the server.
I only have a 1080 projector, so my PC is having to transcode the file down to 1080 and I’m using the Atmos audio track.
I just finished this build about a week ago and I have been trying to watch my first 4k movie on this system. The movie specifically is Thor Ragnarok, it’s a 56gb file and it will play for 20-25 minutes and then start pausing every 30 seconds or so, then I have to pause and let it load a little more. I have tried turning on Verbose logging and looking at the transcode speed and I wasn’t able to really see much or figure out which file exactly to open. The format of this movie is .MKV, but I feel like my PC should have no issue with the transcoding taking place, are there any settings I can change to improve the performance? If I play these larger 4K files from my NAS and use SMBC on the Shield they don’t lag at all… I also turned off the Windows built in virus scanner and that helped with the lagging quite a bit, before I turned that off it wouldn’t even play for more than 5-10 minutes. Thanks for any help/advice.
@LamboTesla
The title of your post is ‘mimum core requirement for plex server’
I think perhaps you need to spend some time reading the plex wiki and installation manuals… plex is a server client ecosystem… and you are asking about cpu cores to serve up VC-1 which is exactly what I gave you… I did specify that your client… for best viewing quality if you insist on serving up raw VC-1 content… should be able to play that content natively… I dont believe that is a graphics card intensive task… but that is up to you to research… you need a client box for your 140” display if its not a ‘smart’ TV that has a plex capable OS… and even if it has a native client… if it cant do native VC-1 you either need to add a client that can or have a server that can transcode.
Be that as it may… again… for the short bus crowd
If your client can play VC-1 native the cpu in the server really isn’t an issue… it becomes a file server for all intents and purposes…
The only time you need to follow my CPU guidance for the server … is for when your client cant play the VC-1 or whatever else is on your server, natively and therefore need to be able to transcode in real time… that is the kicker…
I dont think you understand the basic server / client relationship
4k is buttpain right now… most hardware is not up to the task, plex is certainly not there yet… there are ways of making it work… but its not a noob friendly process.
You are likely CPU constrained as real time transcode of full bitrate 4k is all but impossible on commodity gear… you could also be network constrained since all you mention is your WAN speeds which dont mater, not your internal infrastructure speed between your client and server on YOUR network…
I think you should stick to 1080 content… at least until you have a display to watch 4k on… makes sense right…
Hi Dragonmel, you’re answering someone else questions that were injected into this string. I’m LamboTesla not ‘dwold91’!
My response to your helpful response above:
Ah yes, the equipment! Now, that’s what I was looking for but I didn’t state my needs correctly to Otto. Thx for the added clarity. Our theater investment is quite heavy sporting 140" screen/Sony VPL-VW1100ES projector. Per your recommendation, we’ll wait for more 4K maturation. On the other hand, I’ve noticed that you focused on the CPU, not the graphics hardware. I started off researching the intel core i7 69xx/68xx processor only because that’s what all of the blogs regarding processing native VC-1 [single thread] were focused on [albeit, single core speed for single thread]. So now I’m somewhat confused because you didn’t mention the graphics hardware? It’s kind of obvious that I’m a novice at this stuff but a quick study, so please, as Otto was so kind to do, provide any corrections in my dialog here that will help my clarity.
@LamboTesla
I responded to your question … about graphics cards… which is irrelevant … plex severs need no graphics cards… recently they have been dabbling with hardware (GPU) transcoding… and it sucks. The quality is terrible… and its not what you were asking for anyway… you wanted CPU power… which rightly so comes into play TRANSCODING VC-1… which you said you dont want to do in the end … that you want to have your VC-1 stay in tact… and for the last freeking time… your CLIENT that your connect to your TV or PROJECTOR needs to be able to handle the VC-1 stream natively… otherwise… the server will transcode it… in that case the server must have the CPU specs that Otto and I are talking about…
Stop reading the blogs from people who mostly dont know what they are doing… if you had just read the FAQ section here on plex on how to setup a plex server you would be done by now and not overbuying expensive server equipment you dont need … I am serving up VC-1 and other blu ray content with 50 bucks worth of salvage CPU power… its not rocket science.
At some point help becomes spoon feeding… and I think we are there…
The link to the setup and wiki section is right at the top of the page…
Here is the link if you have trouble finding that…
@dragonmel Thanks sir, do you know how I can test the connection speeds between the client and the server over LAN? I’m just trying to figure out where the bottle neck is. Also, the reason I’m getting 4k content is mostly because it’s all encoded in Dolby Atmos and I have a pretty extensive surround sound setup that I want to take advantage of without having to have the receiver upscale the audio. There are some movies that I don’t have any issues with at all and after disabling the virus scanner it made a huge difference. The files are all roughly the same size, but some work and some don’t. Haha
google test the connection speeds between the client and the server
answer
Thanks both of you for your helpful information. I was hoping to find some more information on the single thread passmark requirements for vc-1 transcode.
I understand that cpu requirements are based on the bitrate of the input and the bitrate of the output. My current plex server has 2x X5660, which is 1290 single thread, 11646 total. It can handle transcode of 1080 / 20 mbit into 720 / 5 mbit output. I am looking at upgrading the cpu in order to get better transcode performance. Is there a way to calculate with specificity the power needed to transcode something like 1080 / 40 mbit into 1080 / 40 mbit?
To provide a little more context - I am looking at either 2x X5687 (1582 single thread / 11955 total) or 2x X5690 (1514 single thread / 13744 total). If 1514 is more than adequate for a high quality transcode then I’ll likely go with that to get more overall power.
Thanks again for supporting the community and specifically those of us who stubbornly keep our blueray rips in their native codecs!
small clarification;
MKV is a CONTAINER
VC-1 is a CODEC
REMUX = changing to a different container (ie from mkv to mp4) or rearranging the streams within a container (ie removing foreign audio streams or subtitles or changing the default audio stream)
Transcode = converting the CODEC ie from VC1 to x264 or x265, or from truehd to AC3, or AC3 to AAC
Remuxing is lossless (doesn’t change the data streams itself)
Transcoding is NOT lossless, transcoding will always reduce quality, even if you cannot see the difference.
So the the best quality will always be to keep the original CODEC (whether the original is vc1 or x264 or even x265), however due to the difficulties of decoding vc1, convenience may necessitate transcoding to x264.
Ahh, the million dollar question; how much power is enough to handle vc1 (or 4k)?
When you find out, please let us know.
Some tests were performed and it was determined that you’d need ~1350 passmark points ‘single thread performance’, to get a VC-1 Bluray remux with burned-in PGS subtitles fluidly transcoding.
Whether that can be simply multiplied by the number of cpu cores to get the absolute number of concurrent transcodes – I’m not sure.
